> Does this sound sensible? Both in its usability in editing and > machine readibility?
It does, except for that I really suggest to make this a global concept, i.e. not a tag like something-"PH" but trying to push through to the top of the OSM project to globally introduce a localization tag for places. And regarding the syntax I suggest "nat_place" or "loc_place", since we already have a similar syntax in "nat_name" and "loc_name" (<- those are for localization as well and they are active already) Cheers Soren > > place=village (or what happens to suit that place) and > place:ph=barangay > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > I checked the "legal" definition of a "city" in the UK and it is not based > > on population size. So I'm convinced that "place=city" meaning a settlement > > with 100,000+ residents is not a UK-centric thing. > > > > However, I don't think this matches how Philippine cities and municipalities > > are tagged in OSM. If it's a legal city, it gets "place=city" and > > "place=town" if a municipality. Legally, a city needs to have a population > > of at least 150,000 (based on the 1991 Local Government Code) so I'm > > confident that all cities in the Philippines correctly get the "place=city" > > tag. However, there are many municipalities that have more than 100,000 > > residents. For example, Dasmarinas, Cavite has a population of 500,000+. > > > > Here's a possible solution: can the place tag get more than 1 value > > separated by commas? So maybe we can tag Dasmarinas with > > "place=city,ph-municipality". We could have Philippine-specific values: > > "ph-city", "ph-municipality", and "ph-barangay" and retain "city", "town", > > and "village" for international compatibility. > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:15 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Guys, > >> > >> Ok I also checked the discussion over there @nabble.com. > >> There is a valid point in the concern that the map becomes unmanagable as > >> a world map if things become tooo localized. > >> I mean in fact, if now the Swedes tag their roads as "väg=x" (saying that > >> the Swedish road claissificationn system was totally different from the GB > >> one), then tomorrow the Germans come and say "we dont have motorways here, > >> we only have Autobahn" .... and so on and so on. At the end of the day you > >> need a dedicated renderer for each country and language. (And hell, we have > >> 193 countries and thousands of languages on this planet.) > >> On the other hand it is also a valid point not to loose localized > >> information due to a "too British" classification of everything. > >> > >> So my solution - in fact for the global issue in the big picture - would > >> be to introduce something like a "nat_place=x" or "loc_place=x" tag, which > >> may be used for a local definition IN ADDITION to the global "place=x" tag, > >> which remains in the (rather British) numerus clausus we have. > >> > >> What do you think? > >> > >> Cheers > >> Soren > >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > >> > Von: "Ian Haylock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > Gesendet: 25.11.08 00:43:35 > >> > An: Eugene Alvin Villar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > CC: [email protected] > >> > Betreff: Re: [talk-ph] Various > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > But barangays are not exactly villages, which is unlike Philippine > >> > municipalities that are acknowledged equivalent to towns. > >> > > >> > > >> > The Place= tag is used to denote the population size of a place, not > >> > whether a place is actually a city, town, village etc. > >> > > >> > > >> > So someone listing all the world's "villages" would get inaccurate > >> > data. Besides, I personally find very little use for a list of all > >> > the world's villages for whatever analysis that list would be needed > >> > for, unlike say, a list of all cities. > >> > > >> > That was a "Hypothetical" example. > >> > > >> > A non Hypothetical example (though not country specific) would be the > >> > change from highway=gate to barrier=gate. Previously navigation S/W > >> > only had to search for highway=gate to find roads to ignore. Now it > >> > has to search for both, twice as much work for the same result. > >> > > >> > (Hmmm, maybe the "place=x" tags should also be accompanied with the " > >> > admin_level=n" tags especially if the place matches the admin_level? > >> > Seems like a good idea, don't you think?) > >> > > >> > Now that gets a +1 from me :-) > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Ian Haylock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > Sorry, > >> > > >> > -1 from me. > >> > > >> > I think using country specific tags like "barangay" will cause > >> > problems with people who use the data. > >> > > >> > As a hypothetical example, suppose someone wanted to list all the > >> > villages in the osm database. If all the different countries used a > >> > different name for village, such a simple task would become a pain in > >> > the A**. > >> > > >> > Cheers, Ian > >> > > >> > --- On *Mon, 24/11/08, *maning * sambale *<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > com> wrote: > >> > From: maning sambale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Various > >> > To: "Eugene Alvin Villar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > Cc: [email protected] > >> > Date: Monday, 24 November, 2008, 8:58 AM > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > +1 for me. That would be fairly easy for me to > >> > change the > >> > place=village to place=barangay. But only for the ones I added. If > >> > others would allow me to do so for them, I'll do it. > >> > > >> > What about the others? Any opinion on this? > >> > > >> > cheers, > >> > maning > >> > > >> > > >> > On 11/24/08, Eugene Alvin Villar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > > Ok then. I'm all for tagging barangay center nodes with > >> > place=barangay. We > >> > > can just ask the renderers to place a special code to render > >> > > >> > place=barangay > >> > > same as place=village. > >> > > > >> > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:29 PM, maning sambale > >> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> > >> > >> I am sending a discussion we (me and IanHaylock) had before with > >> > Mike > >> > >> Collinson (no talk-ph at that time) on tagging Barangays this in > >> > the > >> > >> context of when we are planning to import the GNS data. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> For your comments > >> > >> ======= > >> > >> Thanks for all the > >> > input. Here is a modified version of the script > >> > >> with PPL mapping to village not town. As is, it also reads the > >> > entire > >> > >> rp.txt file but only outputs DCG=ADM2 POIs. The resulting file, > >> > also > >> > >> attached is exactly the same as the one you sent me but has an > >> > > >> > >> addition 'is_in:state=' tag. I am very keen to get lots of > >> > 'is_in' > >> > >> tags into the OSM database as it will make future searching much > >> > >> easier. For example, if there is a critical mass of entries for > >> > > >> > >> Aurora Province spread across the province, it will be possible to > >> > >> work out the approximate bounds of the province and limit searches > >> > >> there. That removes the need to have exact boundary data. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Do upload it if you think it is ready. > >> > >> > >> > >> On the issue of PPL = village or barangay or locality, these are my > >> > >> thoughts. > >> > >> > >> > >> I suggest > >> > we definitely do not use 'locality', that is really > >> > meant > >> > >> for place names that do not coincide with any (current) population > >> > >> centre. > >> > >> > >> > >> place=village > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> Plus: Works worldwide. Minus: Not strictly valid in a Philippine > >> > context. > >> > >> > >> > >> place=barangay > >> > >> > >> > >> We'd need to get the OSMarender and Mapnik guys to add a render > >> > > >> > rule > >> > >> for this. We could also ask for it to be added as a Map Features > >> > >> value, but that is not strictly necessary. I'd guess the easiest > >> > >> request would be to say, "please render this exactly the same as > >> > > >> > >> place=village"? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> If I was explaining what Barangay means, does this sound right? :- > >> > >> > >> > >> place=barangay is specifically for Philippine use, though may be > >> > > >> > >> applicable in other parts of the world like South America. At > >> > an > >> > >> administrative level, a Province (= a state) is divided into > >> > >> muncipalities. Each municipality is controlled by a local council > >> > and > >> > >> has a mayor. A municipality is split into barangays[1], headed by > >> > > >> > >> Barangay captains. In rural areas, these equate to villages. In > >> > urban > >> > >> areas, these equate to suburbs often highly distinguishable on the > >> > >> basis of social class. A rural muncipality, e.g. Donsol[2], may > >> > > >> > >> therefore have a town, Donsol, split into 3 or 4 barangays and > >> > then to > >> > >> It is important to mark them on OSM maps because they are used > >> > >> extensively in every day navigation, information, politics etc. > >> > They > >> > > >> > >> almost invariable equate to an obvious population centre (unlike > >> > >> European wards). Street signs often show which barangay they are > >> > in. > >> > >> Jeepneys and buses often show a barangays as > >> > destinations. > >> > >> > >> > >> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barangay > >> > >> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donsol > >> > > >> > >> ============== > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 11/22/08, Eugene Alvin Villar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi Zoren, > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 6:12 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > There's no discussion yet regarding barangays. I > >> > > >> > prefer leaving out > >> > >> >> > the "Barangay" part of the name (unless > >> > it's numeric like "Barangay > >> > >> >> > 30"). > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> I was just about to send a second mail about that, as I > >> > > >> > realized that > >> > >> >> at > >> > >> >> certain zoom levels you can hardly see the map anymore > >> > because of all > >> > >> the > >> > >> >> Brgy. names, or hardly see certain Brgy > >> > names because of the > >> > other Brgy > >> > >> >> names ;). > >> > >> >> I guess the Brgy concept is a special Pinoy one. This is why > >> > the > >> > >> renderes > >> > >> >> are not designed for such a high density of area names > >> > > >> > (especially with > >> > >> >> regard to font sizes) . To ease this problem I highly > >> > endorse Seav's > >> > >> >> suggestion to omit redundant words "Barangay", > >> > "Brgy."(anyway for being > >> > > >> > >> an > >> > >> >> abbreviation), "Village", > >> > "Subdivision"etc...; unless it is really part > >> > >> of > >> > >> >> the name as in "Barangay 30". > >> > >> >> We should even make this a general national convention for > >> > > >> > OSM > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Regarding this, do not be too conscious of the rendering > >> > problems. Try > >> > >> not > >> > >> > to "fix" the data just so it would render pretty. The > >> > > >> > important thing > >> > is > >> > >> to > >> > >> > do the data right and just leave the renderers (Mapnik, > >> > Osmarender, > >> > >> > etc.) > >> > >> to > >> > >> > decide how to best present the data. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Eugene / seav > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > -- > >> > >> > http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> |---------|-------------------------------------------------------- > >> > --| > >> > > >> > >> | __.-._ |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great." > >> > -Yoda | > >> > >> | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea > >> > of all" -N.Branden| > >> > >> | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ > >> > > >> > | > >> > >> | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ | > >> > >> | _)_/L I http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ | > >> > > >> > >> |---------|-------------------------------------------------------- > >> > --| > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > >> > > http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > |---------|----------------------------------------------------------| > >> > | __.-._ |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great." -Yoda > >> > > >> > | > >> > | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea of > >> > all" -N.Branden| > >> > | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ | > >> > > >> > | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ | > >> > | _)_/L I http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ | > >> > |---------|----------------------------------------------------------| > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > talk-ph mailing list > >> > [email protected] > >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > talk-ph mailing list > >> > [email protected] > >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ talk-ph mailing list > >> > [email protected] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/ > >> > > >> > talk-ph > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > talk-ph mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph > > > > > > > > -- > |---------|----------------------------------------------------------| > | __.-._ |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great." -Yoda | > | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden| > | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ | > | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ | > | _)_/L I http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ | > |---------|----------------------------------------------------------| > _______________________________________________ talk-ph mailing list [email protected] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
