Hi David. I totally understand you now.
-----Original Message-----
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of David via Talk
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 10:36 PM
To: WE English Mailinglist
Subject: Screen Reader Reflections, from abroad
First of all, a small correction. I did not mean to say whether there will
be more Window-Eyes users than Jaws users locally. I just said that the
authorities have prioritized the WE screen reader for a handful years.
In practical terms, that means that if you are a new user, and do apply for
a screen reader, and you don't have special reasons for sticking to a
particular product, you likely will be given a copy of Window-Eyes.
Specially so, since you can install the localized version of WE, on as many
computers as possible, which is not the case with Jaws (from what I am
told).
Would you happen to be an existing Jaws user, or a user of any other screen
reader, and need an update of your product, you will still get the upgrade
of your existing product. So, you are currently not forced to change screen
reader.
Pricing, licensing and whatever other reasons, currently have been a bit
more favorable on Window-Eyes than what was the case with Jaws. On the other
hand, to my understanding Jaws has been on the market over here, for a few
years more than Window-eyes, and for different reasons were the prioritized
product from many authority agents for a number of years. As such, we will
have a considerable number of existing Jaws users - from old.
Hope that cleared up my somehow vague description of the local practice, and
do apologize for not being too specific in my original message. If you look
at my illustrative figures, I even specified that quite a number of users
would NOT be current Window-Eyes users. That is why my figures did go that
low.
Having all that said, let's go back another five years or so, and things
were a bit different. At that time, it was even more up to the user to
determine what screen reader he or she wanted. In those days, the local
dealers did a job on convincing you why you should choose their product,
above the others. Locally, you would find both Window-Eyes, Supernova, and
Jaws. Each being promoted as more or less superior. With some dealers being
a bit more on the forefront, this caused a load of users to choose the most
promoted screen reader; not necessarily the one that served them the better,
or the one that would be most economic for the paying authorities. Licensing
issues, along with the fact that Window-Eyes at the time could be said to be
a bit outstanding, amongst other things due to the scripting capabilities,
might have been some heavy reasons why the authorities decided to make it
more of a default choice, for the newer users.
Yet, this all will be a bit simplified a picture of the whole situation.
You might experience slight differences from one area in our country, to the
other. It all would depend on how much the user insist on going for one
screen reader, or the other. Sometimes, if a user wants a specific Braille
display, and that happens to be the one the Jaws dealer would be selling,
the authority agent who process your application, might judge that it will
be an easier go to have one and same dealer for the complete computer
system. Should the next user insist on a Braille display, a Braille
embosser, or another piece of equipment that is sold by the Window-Eyes
dealer, again the agent might find it more convenient to order a total
package from one and same seller. And then, if the user is a bit more
informed, and insist on choosing one product from that dealer, and the other
product from the next dealer, the agent will likely put together a
cross-board package for you.
Unfortunately, in this regard, the dealer of Window-Eyes might not
necessarily be the most foreground one, though that might be just what I as
an end-user would feel. Alot of these decisions, are made behind the scene,
since every so often, the authorities will have a review of their contracts
with the dealers in the market. Such a review, about a decade ago, lead to
at least one screen reader falling totally out of the approved list of
products, due to the dealer not meeting the requirements from the
authorities. The dealers will have to meet requirements on delivering time,
customer service, pricing and licensing, stock-keeping - along with who
knows whatever else. When will they do the next review? I do not know, and
noone can tell if they will still stick with Window-Eyes as the prioritized
screen reader.
I am living in Scandinavia, but these kind of authority coverage plans, will
exist even in other European countries, with whatever modifications might be
the case. Some countries have a "one size fits all" policy, others are a bit
more flexible. Some are on a very strict budget, others have more loose
frames on the economic part. And it differs a bit from one country to the
other, exactly what authorities will be set to handle and process your
applications. In one country, it would be the School For The Blind, in the
next it might be the Blind Organization, and in the third it might be the
Office For Social Pensions who will be the Executive authority on the
matter. Once again, you can see there are great differences around the
globe, differences that you as an end-user might not always be aware of.
In some areas, it is just about impossible for a blind person to acquire any
technical aids, unless you are a student, or happen to be in a work
situation. Such was, for instance, the case here locally, about 15-20 years
ago. You would have to really come up with good arguments, were you to have
a computer system paid, were you not in school or work situations. Then, the
authorities realized, that even a home-bound blind user, will have to pay
his bills, order his medication, write his letters, and fill in his
applications. How could you, without a computer for the blind (including all
screen reader and other necessary
equipment) - especially now aday when they put more and more services out in
electronic formats. Hence, they decided to change practice, and let us have
the special equipment paid, but we will have to buy and maintain our
personal computer, the ink-printer, and any other equipment that could be
told to be "standard" for every computer user, blind or sighted. This, to a
certain degree, would even include the software you want to install on the
computer.
Well, I won't bother you all with more details. It is of no real benefit for
you, since it will be of more individual character, and tied up with many
details in local customs and living conditions. What I have tried to do, is
simply just to illustrate and stress my point:
Things differs from one place on the globe, to the other.
Did you know, for instance, that GW for years has had a special licensing
policy locally? If I accept to run the LOCALE version of Window-Eyes, that
is a version translated to the locale language, I can install it on as many
computers as I want. Do I, for whatever good reasons I might have, on the
other hand want to run the English version of the very same screen reader, I
am only allowed to run it on a very restricted number of computers, think it
was three or five units. Again, things to be aware of, that might differ
from one country to the other.
Explain why, feel what you want, but that is the hard facts.
Though none of this really helps you much in your local situation, perhaps
it was just interesting to know a bit about how things are handled outside
your vicinity. At least, I find it interesting to notice what kind of
conditions would apply in different places, since it might help us to
understand people a bit more. Take all of what I have told you, as the
reflections and observations of a long-time end-user, with a bit of
experience, and use it as a curosity. I do not promote any standpoint, just
inform you of some observed differences.
David
On 11/24/2016 6:06 AM, Sky Mundell wrote:
> What country do you live in? You menshened that the blind people in
> your country mostly use Window-Eyes
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David
>
> Might be so, at least in certain places around the globe. I only could
talk from locale perspectives.
>
> The Jaws screen reader has for long been a headache for the paying
authorities, due to its strictness in copyright and licensing. Besides, one
official told me - and note that this is a few years old info, that Jaws was
way overpriced locally. At the time, I think Jaws was just about 1000
dollars, in the USA. Locally here, the price without further explanation was
near 6000 dollars. Like he expressed it: "Somewhere across the Atlantic,
that price multiplies nearly by six."
>
> Since the licensing policy of GW was not yet as strict, and though pricing
is a bit higher here than in the States, still Window-Eyes turns out the
cheaper alternative, it has been the prioritized screen reader of several
officials locally.
>
> One valid question of course now is, what VFO will do with all the
dealers. As it stands, one dealer sold Window-Eyes and SuperNova, the other
sold Jaws. Are they both going to be in business outperforming each other?
Or, will the one have to leave, and the other be the only alternative on the
locale market? If the latter alternative will happen, people will not be
able to even make a personal choice, since screen reader manufacturers do
not sell directly to end-users outside their home-market. That would
definitely force a number of people to leave Windows machines, simply just
to get an alternative.
>
> I do not know conditions all over the globe, of course I don't, and I
> am not arguing anything of what you said. But I am ready to claim that
> business might differ a bit from one part of the world to the other.
> And the "We are the only ones" idea, might not necessarily be the one
> that leads to the highest market-share. For many people and local
> faculties, the end-question is a matter of economy. That, at least,
> will stay the same all over the planet. What has happened in the past,
> with several manufacturers, and a number of products to choose from,
> cannot necessarily be transfered into a situation with one huge actor,
> and some small ones. It might be smarter to phase things out over a
> period of time, than to simply just pull the plug. Given enough time,
> the market might adjust more smoothly. And I am by no means the one to
> predict what kind of business model will be the one chosen by VFO, or
> any other actor. I am just making a few observations, doing a bit of
> general reasoni
ng, and letting you all know that things might have more than one
perspective. What seems to be the case from your local perspective, might
seem totally different from another perspective.
>
> For instance, you claim that they sued the State Agencies, if they did not
buy their product? That will work in the States, maybe. Doubt they could get
much far with that approach in Europe. There is even laws that are meant to
prevent such business activities. Besides, Europe has had their own screen
reader manufacturers up through the years, and so is the case with hardware
like Braille displays and speech synthesizers.
> Once they are going International, a company will have to deal with
totally different laws and practices from one place to the other. What works
in the US, might not even work in Canada, or in Brazil. That's why I am not
sure if we should do too much of specculations. Let's face the facts, and
discuss them.
>
> Scene of this world is rapidly changing. In two years, our screen reader
has been sold twice. How long will the new owner keep it? Or, how long will
any screen reader even stay in business? Are you totally sure you really
want to insist on a screen reader with tomorrow's technology?
> What if you could have a graphical display - somehow similar to a
> Braille display, with pins that came up - which gave you a tactile and
> correct copy of the screen contents? You know longer would need a
> screen reader to do any interpretation. What you could touch and feel,
> would be exactly the shape that formed on the visual screen. Sure,
> were you to have one pin for each pixel on the screen, your tactile
> display would be tremendously huge and clumsy. But you are already
> trained to only concentrate on a small part of the screen, and build a
> complete picture of it all in your brain. Besides, even sighted people
> now aday, love to stare at their tiny cellphone display, with far less
> pixels. Imagine you were offered a display, the size of a CD cover,
> holding a matrix of something like 50 by 60 pins. It would not amount
> up to anything more pins than what is inside a 40-cell Braille display
> currently; so the price might not even be all that scarry. The whole
> unit might be under a
pound, or less than half a kilogram.
>
> Each pin on the unit, would represent one pixel on the screen. Small
buttons would let you scroll up, down and sideways on the screen; moving the
unit round the screen contents. Since it would make a true copy of the
shapes on the screen, you don't even have to bother learning Braille. You
would not be stopped by undefined graphics, and if the pins could have been
raised to different hights, you might even have a way of simplified color
notion. What you feel, is what they see! Do you still want a screen reader?
Still want to risk that new updates from your software manufacturer will
break the screen reader's functionality? Or having to chance on the fact
that next generation of soft- or hardware will be compatible with the
interface and programming language your screen reader was manufactured
under?
>
> OK, till now, this all has been a dream. One big show-stopper has been the
pricing of Braille cells, or any technology that would resemble such cells.
Recently though, we have heard of the neww Braille displays - which
apparently will sell for a fraction of the traditional ones. That must mean,
that prices on the pins to pop up and down, likely have been greatly
reduced. Or, was there anyone manufacturer out there that highly over-priced
their traditional units? I only can observe that the pricing issue might not
be the biggest issue any longer. Furthermore, I recently read about some
interesting development that is currently going on, which might bring things
closer to realization, than what we have been used to think. And that was
even about a unit that would be the size of a standard PC mouse.
>
> For those of you, who happen to be familiar with the old-time product
named Optacon, you will have a clue what I am talking about. The rest of
you, will have to think a bit non-traditionally here, but still you might
want to consider if screen readers is the ABSOLUTE answer for tomorrow.
>
>
> On 11/23/2016 8:02 AM, Sky Mundell wrote:
> > Hi Grant. Your absolutely right. The reason why JAWS got the
government > agencies was because they sued any state agencies who did not
purchase JAWS.
> > In other words, they threatened the agencies to either buy JAWS or be
sued > and that scared the agencies so much that they began purchasing only
JAWS.
> > As a result, many of the earlier windows screen readers, like Slimware
> Window Bridge, all went out of business.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
> Behalf Of Grant Metcalf via Talk > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 10:42
PM > To: David; Window-Eyes Discussion List > Subject: Response to Dve
about WindowEyes and and the Shark > > Hi dave, > You have many good
points with respect to business expenses and compotition.
> >
> > Unfortunately, The Shark got the government involved in purchasing
their > product and so made it difficult for other screen reader programs
to be as > well funded as VFO is. I suspect that because the government is
so involved > with JFW it will be the primary product for VFO dispite our
preferences.
> > Grandpa DOS will never purchase the Shark, but if I change, it will
probably > be to NVDA or perhaps Narrator should I have the money to spend.
The other > unfortunate thing is that all those who have taxable income
will be paying > for the Shark anyway. To often big business and government
work > hand-in-hand. Weep out loud!
> >
> > Grandpa DOS
> >
> > O
> >
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