Think perhaps I did not come totally through there. Nice to hear that both Narrator and TalkOver has improved. The only point I wanted to make, was that even if they have improved, and even if they have certain features we might wish had been in some of the stand-alone screen readers; dreaming of a full-fledged screen reader being part of the OS itself, might be a bit out of realistic. I did not want to discourage any development, or to diminish any effort of the industry in being accessibility-minded. I just wanted to point out why we might not necessarily hope for such a thing as seeing WinEyes somehow resurrected inside Windows.
Your point about the changes that takes place when one owner - or leader - goes, and another comes, is quite valid here. And was part of what I illustrated when I talked about the different merges. As a tiny follow-up on that - and please don't think I am arguing anything, just think it's worth to keep in mind - is this: The guys from GW, who now are with MS, are not exactly in their youngest years. I don't know their age,and it is of no importance either. Point here is, that one day they too will retire. Once they are out of the office, hopefully they will have made a screen reader footprint in the OS. Let's wait and see how deep that footprint will be. No, I don't think the industry, neither people in general are "out to get us". My point was that they might never have been trained to think that anyone would need their product or services been made accessible. Such training might best be done, from early age and up. When accessibility is not part of the training you get in school - or even pre-school - it is a new thing when you meet it in your workplace. And people are simply not aware of this. Without awareness of its impact on the life of the infirmed, how would we expect them to see the need for spending big resources in making their products ready for us. Sure, we all will agree that much has changed, comparing today's daily living with that of 40 or 50 years back. Many things have become a mere breeze to manage, even for the average blind person. May I just point out, that if anyone can make a living by usage of TalkOver, TalkBack or NVDA on the corresponding electronic device, I am all happy for them. Up through the years, I have heard about blind people being a chef, a butcher, a farmer, a car mechanics, a carpenter. Even I decided to get an education inside electronics and computing, in a time when such a learning was considered far out of reach for a person without full sight. That does tell little about the capabilities of a product in general though. I am well aware that there are people who will be champions on their cellphone, tablet or Mac. And for them, the screen reader seem to be complete, for the job they want done. Still, you would have a hard time, in doing some of the more heavy - multi-level - jobs with those screen readers. After all, would you be willing to tell that NVDA is *all* a person needs, so as to be in a productive state? For most users, yes, well enough. Are you only going to check emails, print a letter, read some scanned product, and doing your online banking - OK NVDA is a totally free alternative for you. For most users on this list though, I am ready to say it lacks too much, that we want WinEyes out our door all yet. One day maybe, NVDA will have grown enough, that WinEyes finally will be put in the museum. Or, would it be that Narrator became the big thing. Until then, I think I will stick with what we have. Interesting to hear about the development, and I am in the process of getting my next computer, which likely will have Win10. So then I might give Narrator a spin. But I am still going to rely on WinEyes as my main screen reader, till any of the built-ins have become well enough customizable that I can have them do a job of serving me through my activities of daily computing. Again, I do not want to point right or wrong, simply just trying to show different perspectives to the whole matter. David On 7/8/2019 2:57 AM, Tom Kingston via Talk wrote: > No, Narrator does not yet compare to Window-Eyes, NVDA, or JAWS. But a > lot of work has been done on it and it is a pretty capable screen > reader for the average user today. And be it that both Doug Geoffray > and Ron Parker (the two main developers from GW-Micro) are there, I > assume they're looking to do a little more than give it a facelift. > > The real problem was Bill Gates. Our needs had no priority all the > years he was at the helm. Most of what was done for accessibility was > done under pressure from differing directions. However, since Satya > Nadella took over the helm, accessibility became a real priority and > there has been a sweeping change across the entire enterprise on > awareness and incorporating accessibility into the development > process. There has been an enormous amount of work done on > accessibility in product lines such as Office and the Visual Studio > programming environment. > > Whether one purchases or subscribes to Office is their choice. For > some (blind or not) the small monthly or annual payments is the > difference between getting it and not getting it. > > Microsoft will never sell Narrator. They would be publicly shamed. And > the market is too small to make a difference to a company that large > anyway. > > I'm not a fan of Apple's VoiceOver. But it is scriptable in some > manner. I have a friend who owns a recording studio in New York city > and is running purely on Macs. That is work that is far beyond that of > the average user. > > So, from my perspective, the world isn't quite so bleak and out to get > us. > > > On 7/7/2019 10:07 AM, David via Talk wrote: >> Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. >> And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so >> perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to >> have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. >> Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these >> even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a >> certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are >> included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. >> I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of >> them. >> >> >> Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, >> without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we >> judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much >> welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you >> don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but >> rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single >> month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have >> bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have camped >> with it for the next 5 or 10 years. >> >> >> My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a somehow >> working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform anything much >> more than just read the screen to you, you will be offered to pay $19.95 >> a month; or, in case you want the Professional version with some basic >> scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. >> >> >> I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great to >> see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. >> Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. >> And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, >> which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. Hence, >> whatever good the screen reader might be on your cellphone or tablet, >> will you please consider comparing your activity on these units, as well >> as your productivity - and then come back telling me these screen >> readers are to be compared with WinEyes for one. But if now, Google and >> Apple - both being really big industries, and even somehow passed by >> Microsoft in market sharing - has never got anything better than this, >> why would you expect Microsoft to be. As MS are loosing market, they >> doubtfully will put too much into a screen reader. After all, it is not >> the screen reader that will sell. On the other hand, as Google and Apple >> has climbed the ladder of the market, you would somehow have expected >> them to have invested more in their screen readers. What is it you think >> MS will be doing different? >> >> >> Sorry, I did not mean to be critical, or to put anyone down. I just >> meant to point out the realities of today. Business is business; and it >> is all about money. As the electronic devices have dropped in price, >> noone wants to pay 5 times the electronic price, for their software to >> be able to run the device. Meaning, the software industry cannot charge >> you a shirt, a jacket and five pairs of shoes -just to leave you the >> license for turning on your computer. Why we see more and more >> subscription-based products. Even now aday, the pricing of the Windows >> license soon will be higher than the price of buying just a brand new >> computer, with a somehow restricted license on it. Use it for two or >> three years, till the poor quality breaks, and then throw it away and go >> get yourself a new one. Or, like Office, make people pay you a fortune >> over the life-span of the product, by charging them that little each >> month, that they do not know you are draining their bank account. >> >> >> As an interesting side-track here, might I take the opportunity to tell >> you all something from locally? >> >> You know, some cellphone operators offer you a mid-range phone, for a >> quite reduced price. Only fish-hook of it all, you have to subscribe for >> a given service, for the next 24 months or something of that sort. Over >> here, the authorities have decided that when they advertise for this >> kind of products, they will have to show you the GRAND TOTAL, phone >> price and all the months subscription costs summed up. And they have to >> do this right there in the advertisement. When you sit down and look at >> it, it often turns out the deal is not good at all. You thought you got >> a cheap phone, and perhaps you did. But they knew to charge you the >> price-reduction and all interests plus a good deal more, through your >> *tiny* little monthly subscriptions. >> >> >> Will be interesting to see what happens to Narrator. Another thing of >> course is, that some rumors want it that Win10 is perhaps the last >> Windows version ever. And if so, do you think MS are going to spend too >> much on a product that will go down the drain anyway? >> >> >> Just some thoughts. >> >> David >> >> On 7/7/2019 5:39 AM, Brenda via Talk wrote: >>> I wonder if W-E would have just been absorbed sooner had Microsoft >>> bought them years ago. I can’t see Microsoft letting W-E be a >>> standalone program. Maybe GW micro knew this and did not want to >>> lose control of the program to Microsoft. >>> >>> The whole thing was very painful but maybe in the long run it will >>> be a good thing because narrator may soon become as good as window >>> eyes and maybe even better and if so, it will be included in Windows >>> so no one will have to pay extra for it. >>> >>> We can’t change the past, but there is hope for the future. (I just >>> wish we had the W-E support people to call when we needed help.) >>> >>> >>> Brenda >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dictated and sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jul 6, 2019, at 8:30 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, >>>> Inc. via Talk <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; >>>> Microsoft >>>> should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. If it >>>> had, it >>>> would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years ago and would >>>> not need >>>> to reinvent the wheels. >>>> >>>> I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. >>>> Anyhow, I'm >>>> sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping >>>> Microsoft >>>> to do the right thing! >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Olusegun >>>> Denver, Colorado >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of >>>> the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >>>> >>>> For membership options, visit >>>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/bjnite%40gmail.com. >>>> For subscription options, visit >>>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >>>> List archives can be found at >>>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of >>> the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >>> >>> For membership options, visit >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. >>> For subscription options, visit >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >>> List archives can be found at >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/tom.kingston%40charter.net. >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. 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