Please, let me give you all a tiny example of what still needs attention, before a screen reader like Narrator will become productive. And yes it seems a tiny thing to many, but it still has a lot of impact. And it is but one of the many things to be considered.
For most people living in the USA, or in places that are mainly English-speaking, this might not even have been an issue. Same goes, if you are living anywhere else, and only know one language. But for many people the everyday activity looks a bit more challenging. Those who live in Canada, Non-English European countries, and most parts of Africa, will know what I am talking. In Canada for one, you have to deal with information both in English and French. Though you might have taken the shortcut and learned to deal with your English synthesizer attempting to read French words, you will agree it is not optimal. And promise you, try let it read some Islandic, Swedish or Greek - and you will likely be lost. These languages often have National characters, that are not part of the English alphabet. Here I am going to commend Eloquence for at least *trying* to pronounce something that will come close enough. But try with any of the other synths on the main market, and you will find them typically skip those charactres in the text. Imagine your English screen being read out to you - with all the letters of A, G and K not being spoken. How productive would that be? So, for a multi-lingual user, the way to go, is to have two or more synthesizers installed. Each handling one of the languages you are working with. It won't be anything rare, for users living outside the English world, to have to switch between languages, numerous times a day. Even several times an hour. You are checking something on the net, that is in English. You get a message from your mom, which is in your locale language. Then you need get in touch with someone in another country, like here on the list, and again you are dealing with English. And you simply gotta pay that phone bill today, and your banking site is back in your native language. Oh, wait, you even have a friend who speaks a third language, and you sure want to drop her a nice word of encouragement. One African person I talked to, told me that they knew to speak no less than seven different languages. Now, you can easily - and cheaply enough - get hold of electronic voices for most main languages today. Long as they are SAPI voices, they will tie in with your screen reader, without too much of problems. That is, on Windows. Thing is, how easy is it to swap between the different voices? The last decade it has been a swift thing in WinEyes, since you can use the VoiceRotor app, which became part of the standard installation of the screen reader. Using this app, all you need is pressing a hotkey, wait for a second while the next voice is being activated, and you are good to go. NVDA, does lack such a hotkey. To perform a swap of synthesizer - will require you to go in and out of at least one, and sometimes two different menus. Android has got quite a number of languages to choose from. And if you don't want to stick with Google's voice for your native tongue, you simply just buy another voice, and get it installed. Still, you cannot easily swap between them. In and out of menus, requiring yu to perform several gestures for each swapping. now imagine you are checking the email this morning, and there are 25 new messages from you. First three are in one language, then comes 2 in another, yet 4 more in the first, still 1 more in the other - and so forth. If each change of language will take you 10 seconds, how long will it take to check your mail? I'd let you do your own time math. Smiles. See, for most multi-lingual users this is the scenario of their daily computer activity. And what do you think your employer is telling you, if you have to spend half an hour each working-day, just in swapping synthesizers? Something about productivity, my guess would be. A similar thing would be told, comes to the Braille output. Like you in English have Grade-two Braille, so do other languages. But since the words are different, one language from the other, and the Grade-two is meant to minimize the space requirement and increase the readability, the Grade-two of another language will have to be quite differing from the one you know in English. In English, you have one word, consisting of only the letter A. That's why that letter by itself cannot mean any abbriviation. But in Scandinavian languages for instance, there are no words made up of only that one letter. So, in Grade-two of those languages, an A on its own, will be the abbriviation of the word "at". Again, in English you have the combination TH, occuring several times even in one and same phrase. It is of high value to you, to shorten that down to one character. In several European languages, that TH combination hardly ever occur, hence no need to spend one Braille character in shortening something that close to never would be used. That in turn means, that the character we in English so happily read as TH, might be used for the representation of another set of characters in any other language. Some language might define it to represent two or three characters, others will spend the Braille symbol on shortening a whole word, whereas still others will be using it to represent a National character outside the 26 standard ones aA through Z. One such example would be the symbol made up of dots 2, 4 and 6. In English you let that symbol represent the O-W combination; In Danish they use it to represent one of their three National characters. OK, so for a Braille user to read fast and effecient, he needs the Braille table swap whenever he wants to read a given text, in any of his languages. Just like you swap the synth. If he has to go through a couple of menus to swap Braille table, and another couple of menus to swap synth - how long will it take him to swap language? Or, how tidious will it be? Doing this five times an hour, how productive will such a screen reader prove to be? Until a screen reader can provide a means of quick and seamless swapping of synthesizer, I am ready to deem it "not good for high productivity". I did discuss this with Doug, back in the years of GW. GW never seemed to understand, hence never got multi-lingual. Jaws has been somehow better on this, though they are in lack of some standard means of quick-swap. Guess it could be scripted, and thereby be productive enough. NVDA, to all my knowledge has no quick fix on the matter. And Android is hopeless without some third-party applications installed. Never touched a Mac, so curious if someone would know what capabilities are on the TalkOver. Though rather lengthy an explanation, you will now appreciate at least one of the features that will need quite some attention in most of the built-in screen readers. Since Microsoft are pretty stiff on their licensing of the OS itself, not even letting you change the very license from one language to the other, let alone the capability of swapping the working environment - I am ready to doubt they are going to spend too much effort in making their screen reader all that multi-lingual. Prove me wrong, and I will be happy. Google lets you do some swapping, in that they tie the language synth up with what keyboard is active. Fine, long as you type - but it does have no effect when you just read an SMS or any other text on the screen. Again, would be interesting to know, how seamless this performs on Apple products. On 7/8/2019 4:56 AM, Darrell Bowles via Talk wrote: > To know that the folks at GW Micro are working on making accessibility in windows great, tells me that Narrator and Magnifier are in no way done yet. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Talk <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Loy Green via Talk > Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 7:14 PM > To: Window-Eyes Discussion List <[email protected]> > Cc: Loy Green <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > The latest version of Narrator in Windows 1903 is very good. It has gotten me through some things that JAWS could not. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David via Talk" <[email protected]> > To: "Window-Eyes Discussion List" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Cc: "David" <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 10:07 AM > Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > >> Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. >> And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so >> perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to >> have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. >> Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of >> these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to >> a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are >> included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. >> I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either >> of them. >> >> >> Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, >> without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we >> judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much >> welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, >> you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but >> rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single >> month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could >> have bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have >> camped with it for the next 5 or 10 years. >> >> >> My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a >> somehow working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform >> anything much more than just read the screen to you, you will be >> offered to pay $19.95 a month; or, in case you want the Professional >> version with some basic scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. >> >> >> I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great >> to see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. >> Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. >> And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, >> which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. >> Hence, whatever good the screen reader might be on your cellphone or >> tablet, will you please consider comparing your activity on these >> units, as well as your productivity - and then come back telling me >> these screen readers are to be compared with WinEyes for one. But if >> now, Google and Apple - both being really big industries, and even >> somehow passed by Microsoft in market sharing - has never got anything >> better than this, why would you expect Microsoft to be. As MS are >> loosing market, they doubtfully will put too much into a screen >> reader. After all, it is not the screen reader that will sell. On the >> other hand, as Google and Apple has climbed the ladder of the market, >> you would somehow have expected them to have invested more in their >> screen readers. What is it you think MS will be doing different? >> >> >> Sorry, I did not mean to be critical, or to put anyone down. I just >> meant to point out the realities of today. Business is business; and >> it is all about money. As the electronic devices have dropped in >> price, noone wants to pay 5 times the electronic price, for their >> software to be able to run the device. Meaning, the software industry >> cannot charge you a shirt, a jacket and five pairs of shoes -just to >> leave you the license for turning on your computer. Why we see more >> and more subscription-based products. Even now aday, the pricing of >> the Windows license soon will be higher than the price of buying just >> a brand new computer, with a somehow restricted license on it. Use it >> for two or three years, till the poor quality breaks, and then throw >> it away and go get yourself a new one. Or, like Office, make people >> pay you a fortune over the life-span of the product, by charging them >> that little each month, that they do not know you are draining their bank account. >> >> >> As an interesting side-track here, might I take the opportunity to >> tell you all something from locally? >> >> You know, some cellphone operators offer you a mid-range phone, for a >> quite reduced price. Only fish-hook of it all, you have to subscribe >> for a given service, for the next 24 months or something of that sort. >> Over here, the authorities have decided that when they advertise for >> this kind of products, they will have to show you the GRAND TOTAL, >> phone price and all the months subscription costs summed up. And they >> have to do this right there in the advertisement. When you sit down >> and look at it, it often turns out the deal is not good at all. You >> thought you got a cheap phone, and perhaps you did. But they knew to >> charge you the price-reduction and all interests plus a good deal >> more, through your >> *tiny* little monthly subscriptions. >> >> >> Will be interesting to see what happens to Narrator. Another thing of >> course is, that some rumors want it that Win10 is perhaps the last >> Windows version ever. And if so, do you think MS are going to spend >> too much on a product that will go down the drain anyway? >> >> >> Just some thoughts. >> >> David >> >> On 7/7/2019 5:39 AM, Brenda via Talk wrote: >>> I wonder if W-E would have just been absorbed sooner had Microsoft >>> bought them years ago. I can’t see Microsoft letting W-E be a >>> standalone program. Maybe GW micro knew this and did not want to lose >>> control of the program to Microsoft. >>> >>> The whole thing was very painful but maybe in the long run it will be >>> a good thing because narrator may soon become as good as window eyes >>> and maybe even better and if so, it will be included in Windows so no >>> one will have to pay extra for it. >>> >>> We can’t change the past, but there is hope for the future. (I just >>> wish we had the W-E support people to call when we needed help.) >>> >>> >>> Brenda >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dictated and sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jul 6, 2019, at 8:30 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. >>>> via Talk <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; >>>> Microsoft should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into >>>> Windows. If it had, it would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than >>>> 25 years ago and would not need to reinvent the wheels. >>>> >>>> I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. >>>> Anyhow, I'm sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching >>>> and helping Microsoft to do the right thing! >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Olusegun >>>> Denver, Colorado >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of >>>> the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >>>> >>>> For membership options, visit >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Fbjnite%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624180599&sdata=csscagfm1ArvkMupBChQss5yZj%2FCFbMiC%2B4Sv%2BhFIUg%3D&reserved=0. >>>> For subscription options, visit >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flis >>>> ts.window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02 >>>> %7C01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aa >>>> aaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624180599&sdata=jpDOAIIKCJ1fPNGYia >>>> OQ6wcf%2B30MuoKr29Jlih8A4eY%3D&reserved=0 >>>> List archives can be found at >>>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flis >>>> ts.window-eyes.com%2Fprivate.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02% >>>> 7C01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa >>>> aaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624180599&sdata=Q%2BGxgUjGEUCGkDhKZ >>>> wCiQG7WvakR1giVRwf9Pyq9Ho0%3D&reserved=0 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >>> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >>> >>> For membership options, visit >>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Ftrailerdavid%2540hotmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624180599&sdata=5LAU5osMjx%2FFKlC3SxhG5LqxSJglcezTbS4SHkSvBKo%3D&reserved=0. >>> For subscription options, visit >>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist >>> s.window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7 >>> C01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaa >>> aaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624180599&sdata=jpDOAIIKCJ1fPNGYiaOQ6w >>> cf%2B30MuoKr29Jlih8A4eY%3D&reserved=0 >>> List archives can be found at >>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist >>> s.window-eyes.com%2Fprivate.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C >>> 01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaa >>> aaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624180599&sdata=Q%2BGxgUjGEUCGkDhKZwCiQ >>> G7WvakR1giVRwf9Pyq9Ho0%3D&reserved=0 >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit >> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Floyrg2845%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624180599&sdata=FGkbdhtBNirVTM6NFjcAJhTGjVFgL8J%2Fo%2FnE0g5fuTI%3D&reserved=0. >> For subscription options, visit >> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists >> .window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C0 >> 1%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa >> aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624190610&sdata=1l%2Fad%2F8JhWL9OlwR10JNKT >> seM4PWsq%2Fs5%2BHXjMLdhV4%3D&reserved=0 >> List archives can be found at >> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists >> .window-eyes.com%2Fprivate.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01 >> %7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaa >> aaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624190610&sdata=JkEjphgnjSWF4CSZzCQtR6UNOhq >> tZxrsgL2JiroVdfw%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Fdgbowles%2540msn.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624190610&sdata=OVseat3XV1opTQ7kRx%2FEilfcl2Wi6qSr1XIWBFlfjvE%3D&reserved=0. > For subscription options, visit https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624190610&sdata=1l%2Fad%2F8JhWL9OlwR10JNKTseM4PWsq%2Fs5%2BHXjMLdhV4%3D&reserved=0 > List archives can be found at https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Fprivate.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0f1c89b922de42069b5508d70330d81c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636981380624190610&sdata=JkEjphgnjSWF4CSZzCQtR6UNOhqtZxrsgL2JiroVdfw%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. > For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
