I agree with Jen Foote. We need to be cave conservationists, which means conserving whatever is in the caves. We need to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Linda S
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano <[email protected]> wrote: > It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this > is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. > After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be > repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original > hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. > It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, > and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair > probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable > gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, > spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have > immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and > every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You > bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain > WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it > out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag > that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That > includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty > caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? > Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from > the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? > Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those > fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate > it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just > touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under > them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. > Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. > Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a > "feel good" measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then > come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't > work. Same as a petition. > Some individuals need a "cause". Seems like the person mentioned below > has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. > By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- > stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about > a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are > restricted to just one cave? > The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, > decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by > scientific, reproducible results. > Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you > like. > All of this is simply emotion based bad science. > Carl……. > On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: > > Total waste of time. > > CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the > fact that they can reap millions in litigation. > > This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. > > Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation > by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That > has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of > it being endlessly repeated as fact. > > Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing > is going to change. > > Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to > emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no > interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a > blip on the money screen. > > Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important > on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any > topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is > pissing in the wind. > > > On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: > > Begin forwarded message: > > *Subject: **Petition to keep public caves open to the public* > > As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all > public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. > This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when > responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the > bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. *Human contributions to spread* can > be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever > existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to > conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, > and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this > cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. > > > https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F > > Sincerely, > John Dunham > > > _______________________________________________ > SWR mailing list > [email protected] > http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > SWR mailing list > [email protected] > http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net > >
_______________________________________________ SWR mailing list [email protected] http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
