Thanks for the reply. It will ceratinly help me to think of these as distinct technologies, at least until I get a bit more "han(d)s-on" experience :-)
On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 12:35:24 PM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote: > A distributed ledger and a blockchain are distinct technologies. You can > use a blockchain to build a verifiable distributed ledger (verifiable in > the sense of being able to detect tampering after data has been entered, > there aren't any checks on the validity of the source data), but it is far > from the only way to do so. Distributed hash tables have been very > successful as distributed data stores that are far more scalable than > bitcoin in the long term, in a large part because it doesn't have the > continuously growing record of all previous actions, and it doesn't have > the huge security and privacy issues that a blockchain has. > > So distributed ledgers are very interesting, but while blockchains can be > used as distributed ledgers they are not the same thing. > > On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:09:25 PM UTC+2 [email protected] wrote: > >> I remain interested in Distributed Ledger Technology much more than I am >> interested in BitCoin and its other financial derivatives, that even >> Central Banks are considering as Cash replacements. ( And I am not at all >> interested in NFTs since the Name says it all ... "Non Fungible" ... ) >> >> One thing I really appreciate about this communitiy is the technological >> creativity that emerges here. In part, I think it results from the fact >> that community membership is quite diverse, bring a lot of different >> experience and insight to bear. >> >> As more and more DLT systems emerge, it becomes appealing to me to be >> able to use partial segments from multiple systems as an effective >> combination lock. For example, a combination of: >> >> - The first 4 digits of the latitue and longiture of (as reported by >> my cell phone) >> - The last 4 digits of an active Credit Card (verifiable against >> Credit Bureau data, together with full Address) >> - A reference to a recognized Social Media site (preferably with a >> Pictire and peer reviewed) e.g. linkedIn or Flickr >> - The last 4 digits of my Passport number >> - ... >> >> Depending need, I can select various combinations that even include a >> startTime and validity Duraction. >> >> With a bit of proper encoding into a Unicode hash, it becomes possible to >> even make such a key remarkably short since there are about 2.2 million >> useful Unicode points have been defined, ensuring that (2e6)e4 gives more >> than enough room! >> >> The appeal is that I can create distinct Tokens that meet my Security and >> Privacy needs, but that others can verify from reliable sources of public >> Definitive Data. >> >> Comments will be appreciated. >> >> Cheers, >> Hans >> >> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 5:14:52 AM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote: >> >>> or perhaps I am being too hard on the idea. Instead if you all want I >>> can add blockchain to tiddlywiki and sell NFTs pointing to wikis that I >>> made, like the original twederation wiki or the interaction fiction wiki. >>> >>> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 10:54:03 AM UTC+2 Jed Carty wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, the central question is could blockchain be useful to tiddlywiki. >>>> And so far the only answer has been to use it as a proof of existence by >>>> storing what is in one blockchain (file hashes in git) in a different from >>>> in another block chain. >>>> >>>> Also, traceability in a blockchain is guaranteed only for events that >>>> happen on the blockchain, not for what the blockchain is supposed to >>>> represent. It is always open to any sort of manipulation at the human >>>> interface side. I could start a car tracing block chain, and I could add >>>> 10000 cars to it saying that I own them. That has no bearing on the real >>>> world without some mediating central authority, and with a mediating >>>> central authority the blockchain is redundant. >>>> >>>> People keep saying 'I am not familiar with the technology' and then >>>> arguing against someone who has studied the theory and technology that >>>> goes >>>> into blockchains in academic, hobby and professional capacities. The blind >>>> faith in the unchangeable nature of a blockchain is a huge security risk >>>> to >>>> anything that uses it. It is worth repeating over and over: all the >>>> guarantees are just for the numbers stored on the computer, there are >>>> absolutely no guarantees about what those numbers represent. All the >>>> traceability claims completely fail when it gets to the data entry into >>>> the >>>> blockchain. >>>> >>>> After working with some startups I am very familiar with how easy it is >>>> to separate people from large sums of money by making magical claims that >>>> aren't backed up by reality, investment in a technology and the actual >>>> utility of the technology don't correlate. >>>> >>>> And as far as smart contracts go, never sign a contract you don't >>>> understand. Someone with my skills would be able to make a contract that >>>> does whatever I want it to do and have it all be essentially invisible to >>>> someone who isn't intimately familiar with the technology that goes though >>>> the code line by line to verify every part of it. >>>> As as example: >>>> https://kf106.medium.com/how-to-sleepmint-nft-tokens-bc347dc148f2 >>>> >>>> For ip protection, if Sony (or any other large monied entity) wanted to >>>> claim ownership of anything I have created I would bet on their money and >>>> lawyers over any proof I have of ownership every time, regardless of what >>>> proof of ownership I have, no matter how impossible it is to counterfeit. >>>> >>>> But, all of that is off topic, to address the original topic, there are >>>> three questions that need to be answered: what, how and why. >>>> Why is easy, because it could be interesting. So we don't have to worry >>>> about that. >>>> What is the important one that hasn't been answered aside from a >>>> legally untested method for proof of ip ownership. And that isn't a method >>>> for tiddlywiki so much as just an option using external tools. And given >>>> what I know, I would never accept a hash stored on a blockchain as the >>>> only >>>> proof of a claim if there were any significant consequences related to it. >>>> It is impossible to answer how without answering what first. >>>> >>>> So, what would any blockchain technology do in tiddlywiki? Without that >>>> we may as well say 'should we incorporate Ingenuity flying on mars into >>>> tiddlywiki?' No one is going to claim that Ingenuity isn't important or >>>> worth paying attention to, but what does the question even mean? It is >>>> just >>>> gibberish without some idea of what 'incorporate' would involve. >>>> >>>> This is the exact same question as before and it needs an answer before >>>> there is any chance of discussion other than playing buzzword bingo. Like >>>> what does 'a blockchain of secure tiddlers' mean in practical terms? >>>> >>>> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:07:54 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote: >>>> >>>>> Mart, >>>>> >>>>> I applaud your raising blockchain as a possible integration to >>>>> tiddlywiki. >>>>> >>>>> I spent some time researching the technology, but I could not build an >>>>> instance, nor am I an expert, however some thoughts; >>>>> >>>>> I think it could be a good technology to make use of with tiddlywiki, >>>>> especially since it does promote secure sharing, unalterable "documents" >>>>> and cutting out the middlemen (which is some ways a feature of >>>>> tiddlywiki), >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps the first application I can see is if there were a way to >>>>> publish selected tiddlers into a blockchain, effectively small documents. >>>>> A >>>>> range of features not possible in standard tiddlywiki would then become >>>>> available to tiddlywiki users and designers. In this case we would look >>>>> at >>>>> a providing secure, certified shared information services via such a >>>>> blockchain and to users of tiddlywiki. Plugins and utility data could be >>>>> published to the blockchain for public access and private tiddlers for >>>>> security `between wikis and wiki users. >>>>> >>>>> Now this somewhat simplified description of a block chain of secure >>>>> tiddlers could actually generate a wide number of seriously powerful >>>>> solutions, by keeping it to a simple set of enabling blockchain >>>>> technologies linked to the tiddler. I have cultivated a creative side to >>>>> my >>>>> use of Information Technology and can imagine many possibilities, but I >>>>> will not extrapolate for know asI hope others may contribute ideas >>>>> unaffected by what I think. >>>>> >>>>> As a person concerned with environmental damage I would be keen not to >>>>> develop a mining process that costs so much computing power as just >>>>> bitcoin >>>>> is already using a substantial percentage of total world computing and >>>>> power resources. I am not sure what this means for our possible uses. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Tones >>>>> >>>>> On Sunday, 9 May 2021 at 19:26:17 UTC+10 Mat wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @inmysocks >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a very sober approach - but/and which I don't think anyone has >>>>>> contradicted. My question is; *could *blockchain somehow be of value >>>>>> for TW? I would not be surprised if it could, especially for aspects >>>>>> that >>>>>> we currently disregard or dismiss for TW. After all, TW is very generic >>>>>> so >>>>>> one way of looking at the question is if there are non-TW use cases that >>>>>> where blockchain is advantagous or even critical, and only *then* >>>>>> ask if TW could be incorporated and bring value in that context. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interestingly, you question the value of blockchain tech per se and >>>>>> identify a single use case (NFT's for collectable toys). I didn't intend >>>>>> for this thread to go there but I guess it's run its course so: >>>>>> >>>>>> I can see many use cases where blockchains make sense: One general >>>>>> area is "traceability". For example a *car blockchain* that tracks >>>>>> ownership of cars, their mileage, repairs etc. Or a housing registry. >>>>>> Makes >>>>>> a lot of sense to me. I can also see how central banks / nations would >>>>>> want >>>>>> full control over their money flows. Here's >>>>>> <https://www.winnesota.com/blockchain>a use general case for >>>>>> "logistics" and explanation for why blockchain tech supposedly is >>>>>> perfect >>>>>> for it. If nothing else, the article should make it clear (at least to >>>>>> me) >>>>>> that it can be difficult to see the use of blockchain if one doesn't >>>>>> actually know of the needs for the particular business. Other than >>>>>> traceability, blockchains also bring the smart contract aspect that cuts >>>>>> out middle men for transactions. A pretty big deal and potentially an >>>>>> enormous money saver. And, if nothing else, at least the potential for >>>>>> decentralized control of things should resonate with TW folks. >>>>>> >>>>>> Disclaimer: I know very little about blockchain tech but it is >>>>>> becoming a mature technology and there's billions USD poured into it... >>>>>> so >>>>>> there has to be *something *to it, I figure... >>>>>> >>>>>> <:-) >>>>>> >>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/1eaedd79-6317-4246-8371-fc0802b3633bn%40googlegroups.com.
