If I may remind all, block chain is simply an algorithm, it can be used in many ways including in ways counter to its well known applications, such as cryptocurrencies. A Distributed Ledger can serve many functions and you can have open transactions that a fully traceable, in fact that is a potential strength, as usual its all about agreements in the way we operate, the rules and conventions and scope. For example I could maintain my own blockchain for my own ledger to achieve one thing, or I could share a block chain with partners and trusted collaborators just for us. Block chains Distributed ledger is part of its appeal for crypto currency, but this has moral and ethical issues as is seen by the use of crypto currencies for money laundering etc...
It is we who chose what to do with any algorithm. I for one believe the tiddler concept lends itself to placement on a blockchain, And from there thousands of innovative solutions could develop. In some ways this is the same as adding tiddler to a database, but has other results as well. Tones On Tuesday, 11 May 2021 at 06:15:01 UTC+10 Jon wrote: > Just in case this is of interest - seems to be quite cutting edge > https://qortal.org/ > > On Monday, 10 May 2021 at 21:08:25 UTC+1 [email protected] wrote: > >> Thanks for the reply. It will ceratinly help me to think of these as >> distinct technologies, at least until I get a bit more "han(d)s-on" >> experience :-) >> >> >> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 12:35:24 PM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote: >> >>> A distributed ledger and a blockchain are distinct technologies. You can >>> use a blockchain to build a verifiable distributed ledger (verifiable in >>> the sense of being able to detect tampering after data has been entered, >>> there aren't any checks on the validity of the source data), but it is far >>> from the only way to do so. Distributed hash tables have been very >>> successful as distributed data stores that are far more scalable than >>> bitcoin in the long term, in a large part because it doesn't have the >>> continuously growing record of all previous actions, and it doesn't have >>> the huge security and privacy issues that a blockchain has. >>> >>> So distributed ledgers are very interesting, but while blockchains can >>> be used as distributed ledgers they are not the same thing. >>> >>> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:09:25 PM UTC+2 [email protected] wrote: >>> >>>> I remain interested in Distributed Ledger Technology much more than I >>>> am interested in BitCoin and its other financial derivatives, that even >>>> Central Banks are considering as Cash replacements. ( And I am not at all >>>> interested in NFTs since the Name says it all ... "Non Fungible" ... ) >>>> >>>> One thing I really appreciate about this communitiy is the >>>> technological creativity that emerges here. In part, I think it results >>>> from the fact that community membership is quite diverse, bring a lot of >>>> different experience and insight to bear. >>>> >>>> As more and more DLT systems emerge, it becomes appealing to me to be >>>> able to use partial segments from multiple systems as an effective >>>> combination lock. For example, a combination of: >>>> >>>> - The first 4 digits of the latitue and longiture of (as reported >>>> by my cell phone) >>>> - The last 4 digits of an active Credit Card (verifiable against >>>> Credit Bureau data, together with full Address) >>>> - A reference to a recognized Social Media site (preferably with a >>>> Pictire and peer reviewed) e.g. linkedIn or Flickr >>>> - The last 4 digits of my Passport number >>>> - ... >>>> >>>> Depending need, I can select various combinations that even include a >>>> startTime and validity Duraction. >>>> >>>> With a bit of proper encoding into a Unicode hash, it becomes possible >>>> to even make such a key remarkably short since there are about 2.2 million >>>> useful Unicode points have been defined, ensuring that (2e6)e4 gives more >>>> than enough room! >>>> >>>> The appeal is that I can create distinct Tokens that meet my Security >>>> and Privacy needs, but that others can verify from reliable sources of >>>> public Definitive Data. >>>> >>>> Comments will be appreciated. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Hans >>>> >>>> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 5:14:52 AM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote: >>>> >>>>> or perhaps I am being too hard on the idea. Instead if you all want I >>>>> can add blockchain to tiddlywiki and sell NFTs pointing to wikis that I >>>>> made, like the original twederation wiki or the interaction fiction wiki. >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 10:54:03 AM UTC+2 Jed Carty wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes, the central question is could blockchain be useful to >>>>>> tiddlywiki. And so far the only answer has been to use it as a proof of >>>>>> existence by storing what is in one blockchain (file hashes in git) in a >>>>>> different from in another block chain. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, traceability in a blockchain is guaranteed only for events that >>>>>> happen on the blockchain, not for what the blockchain is supposed to >>>>>> represent. It is always open to any sort of manipulation at the human >>>>>> interface side. I could start a car tracing block chain, and I could add >>>>>> 10000 cars to it saying that I own them. That has no bearing on the real >>>>>> world without some mediating central authority, and with a mediating >>>>>> central authority the blockchain is redundant. >>>>>> >>>>>> People keep saying 'I am not familiar with the technology' and then >>>>>> arguing against someone who has studied the theory and technology that >>>>>> goes >>>>>> into blockchains in academic, hobby and professional capacities. The >>>>>> blind >>>>>> faith in the unchangeable nature of a blockchain is a huge security risk >>>>>> to >>>>>> anything that uses it. It is worth repeating over and over: all the >>>>>> guarantees are just for the numbers stored on the computer, there are >>>>>> absolutely no guarantees about what those numbers represent. All the >>>>>> traceability claims completely fail when it gets to the data entry into >>>>>> the >>>>>> blockchain. >>>>>> >>>>>> After working with some startups I am very familiar with how easy it >>>>>> is to separate people from large sums of money by making magical claims >>>>>> that aren't backed up by reality, investment in a technology and the >>>>>> actual >>>>>> utility of the technology don't correlate. >>>>>> >>>>>> And as far as smart contracts go, never sign a contract you don't >>>>>> understand. Someone with my skills would be able to make a contract that >>>>>> does whatever I want it to do and have it all be essentially invisible >>>>>> to >>>>>> someone who isn't intimately familiar with the technology that goes >>>>>> though >>>>>> the code line by line to verify every part of it. >>>>>> As as example: >>>>>> https://kf106.medium.com/how-to-sleepmint-nft-tokens-bc347dc148f2 >>>>>> >>>>>> For ip protection, if Sony (or any other large monied entity) wanted >>>>>> to claim ownership of anything I have created I would bet on their money >>>>>> and lawyers over any proof I have of ownership every time, regardless of >>>>>> what proof of ownership I have, no matter how impossible it is to >>>>>> counterfeit. >>>>>> >>>>>> But, all of that is off topic, to address the original topic, there >>>>>> are three questions that need to be answered: what, how and why. >>>>>> Why is easy, because it could be interesting. So we don't have to >>>>>> worry about that. >>>>>> What is the important one that hasn't been answered aside from a >>>>>> legally untested method for proof of ip ownership. And that isn't a >>>>>> method >>>>>> for tiddlywiki so much as just an option using external tools. And given >>>>>> what I know, I would never accept a hash stored on a blockchain as the >>>>>> only >>>>>> proof of a claim if there were any significant consequences related to >>>>>> it. >>>>>> It is impossible to answer how without answering what first. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what would any blockchain technology do in tiddlywiki? Without >>>>>> that we may as well say 'should we incorporate Ingenuity flying on mars >>>>>> into tiddlywiki?' No one is going to claim that Ingenuity isn't >>>>>> important >>>>>> or worth paying attention to, but what does the question even mean? It >>>>>> is >>>>>> just gibberish without some idea of what 'incorporate' would involve. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is the exact same question as before and it needs an answer >>>>>> before there is any chance of discussion other than playing buzzword >>>>>> bingo. >>>>>> Like what does 'a blockchain of secure tiddlers' mean in practical terms? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:07:54 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Mart, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I applaud your raising blockchain as a possible integration to >>>>>>> tiddlywiki. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I spent some time researching the technology, but I could not build >>>>>>> an instance, nor am I an expert, however some thoughts; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it could be a good technology to make use of with >>>>>>> tiddlywiki, especially since it does promote secure sharing, >>>>>>> unalterable >>>>>>> "documents" and cutting out the middlemen (which is some ways a feature >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> tiddlywiki), >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps the first application I can see is if there were a way to >>>>>>> publish selected tiddlers into a blockchain, effectively small >>>>>>> documents. A >>>>>>> range of features not possible in standard tiddlywiki would then become >>>>>>> available to tiddlywiki users and designers. In this case we would look >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> a providing secure, certified shared information services via such a >>>>>>> blockchain and to users of tiddlywiki. Plugins and utility data could >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> published to the blockchain for public access and private tiddlers for >>>>>>> security `between wikis and wiki users. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now this somewhat simplified description of a block chain of secure >>>>>>> tiddlers could actually generate a wide number of seriously powerful >>>>>>> solutions, by keeping it to a simple set of enabling blockchain >>>>>>> technologies linked to the tiddler. I have cultivated a creative side >>>>>>> to my >>>>>>> use of Information Technology and can imagine many possibilities, but I >>>>>>> will not extrapolate for know asI hope others may contribute ideas >>>>>>> unaffected by what I think. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a person concerned with environmental damage I would be keen not >>>>>>> to develop a mining process that costs so much computing power as just >>>>>>> bitcoin is already using a substantial percentage of total world >>>>>>> computing >>>>>>> and power resources. I am not sure what this means for our possible >>>>>>> uses. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> Tones >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sunday, 9 May 2021 at 19:26:17 UTC+10 Mat wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @inmysocks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's a very sober approach - but/and which I don't think anyone >>>>>>>> has contradicted. My question is; *could *blockchain somehow be of >>>>>>>> value for TW? I would not be surprised if it could, especially for >>>>>>>> aspects >>>>>>>> that we currently disregard or dismiss for TW. After all, TW is very >>>>>>>> generic so one way of looking at the question is if there are non-TW >>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>> cases that where blockchain is advantagous or even critical, and only >>>>>>>> *then* ask if TW could be incorporated and bring value in that >>>>>>>> context. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Interestingly, you question the value of blockchain tech per se and >>>>>>>> identify a single use case (NFT's for collectable toys). I didn't >>>>>>>> intend >>>>>>>> for this thread to go there but I guess it's run its course so: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can see many use cases where blockchains make sense: One general >>>>>>>> area is "traceability". For example a *car blockchain* that tracks >>>>>>>> ownership of cars, their mileage, repairs etc. Or a housing registry. >>>>>>>> Makes >>>>>>>> a lot of sense to me. I can also see how central banks / nations would >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> full control over their money flows. Here's >>>>>>>> <https://www.winnesota.com/blockchain>a use general case for >>>>>>>> "logistics" and explanation for why blockchain tech supposedly is >>>>>>>> perfect >>>>>>>> for it. If nothing else, the article should make it clear (at least to >>>>>>>> me) >>>>>>>> that it can be difficult to see the use of blockchain if one doesn't >>>>>>>> actually know of the needs for the particular business. Other than >>>>>>>> traceability, blockchains also bring the smart contract aspect that >>>>>>>> cuts >>>>>>>> out middle men for transactions. A pretty big deal and potentially an >>>>>>>> enormous money saver. And, if nothing else, at least the potential for >>>>>>>> decentralized control of things should resonate with TW folks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Disclaimer: I know very little about blockchain tech but it is >>>>>>>> becoming a mature technology and there's billions USD poured into >>>>>>>> it... so >>>>>>>> there has to be *something *to it, I figure... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <:-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d8744141-32f9-4bb5-a3d5-c819e293e1e4n%40googlegroups.com.
