Just in case this is of interest - seems to be quite cutting edge https://qortal.org/
On Monday, 10 May 2021 at 21:08:25 UTC+1 [email protected] wrote: > Thanks for the reply. It will ceratinly help me to think of these as > distinct technologies, at least until I get a bit more "han(d)s-on" > experience :-) > > > On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 12:35:24 PM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote: > >> A distributed ledger and a blockchain are distinct technologies. You can >> use a blockchain to build a verifiable distributed ledger (verifiable in >> the sense of being able to detect tampering after data has been entered, >> there aren't any checks on the validity of the source data), but it is far >> from the only way to do so. Distributed hash tables have been very >> successful as distributed data stores that are far more scalable than >> bitcoin in the long term, in a large part because it doesn't have the >> continuously growing record of all previous actions, and it doesn't have >> the huge security and privacy issues that a blockchain has. >> >> So distributed ledgers are very interesting, but while blockchains can be >> used as distributed ledgers they are not the same thing. >> >> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 4:09:25 PM UTC+2 [email protected] wrote: >> >>> I remain interested in Distributed Ledger Technology much more than I am >>> interested in BitCoin and its other financial derivatives, that even >>> Central Banks are considering as Cash replacements. ( And I am not at all >>> interested in NFTs since the Name says it all ... "Non Fungible" ... ) >>> >>> One thing I really appreciate about this communitiy is the technological >>> creativity that emerges here. In part, I think it results from the fact >>> that community membership is quite diverse, bring a lot of different >>> experience and insight to bear. >>> >>> As more and more DLT systems emerge, it becomes appealing to me to be >>> able to use partial segments from multiple systems as an effective >>> combination lock. For example, a combination of: >>> >>> - The first 4 digits of the latitue and longiture of (as reported by >>> my cell phone) >>> - The last 4 digits of an active Credit Card (verifiable against >>> Credit Bureau data, together with full Address) >>> - A reference to a recognized Social Media site (preferably with a >>> Pictire and peer reviewed) e.g. linkedIn or Flickr >>> - The last 4 digits of my Passport number >>> - ... >>> >>> Depending need, I can select various combinations that even include a >>> startTime and validity Duraction. >>> >>> With a bit of proper encoding into a Unicode hash, it becomes possible >>> to even make such a key remarkably short since there are about 2.2 million >>> useful Unicode points have been defined, ensuring that (2e6)e4 gives more >>> than enough room! >>> >>> The appeal is that I can create distinct Tokens that meet my Security >>> and Privacy needs, but that others can verify from reliable sources of >>> public Definitive Data. >>> >>> Comments will be appreciated. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Hans >>> >>> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 5:14:52 AM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote: >>> >>>> or perhaps I am being too hard on the idea. Instead if you all want I >>>> can add blockchain to tiddlywiki and sell NFTs pointing to wikis that I >>>> made, like the original twederation wiki or the interaction fiction wiki. >>>> >>>> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 10:54:03 AM UTC+2 Jed Carty wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, the central question is could blockchain be useful to tiddlywiki. >>>>> And so far the only answer has been to use it as a proof of existence by >>>>> storing what is in one blockchain (file hashes in git) in a different >>>>> from >>>>> in another block chain. >>>>> >>>>> Also, traceability in a blockchain is guaranteed only for events that >>>>> happen on the blockchain, not for what the blockchain is supposed to >>>>> represent. It is always open to any sort of manipulation at the human >>>>> interface side. I could start a car tracing block chain, and I could add >>>>> 10000 cars to it saying that I own them. That has no bearing on the real >>>>> world without some mediating central authority, and with a mediating >>>>> central authority the blockchain is redundant. >>>>> >>>>> People keep saying 'I am not familiar with the technology' and then >>>>> arguing against someone who has studied the theory and technology that >>>>> goes >>>>> into blockchains in academic, hobby and professional capacities. The >>>>> blind >>>>> faith in the unchangeable nature of a blockchain is a huge security risk >>>>> to >>>>> anything that uses it. It is worth repeating over and over: all the >>>>> guarantees are just for the numbers stored on the computer, there are >>>>> absolutely no guarantees about what those numbers represent. All the >>>>> traceability claims completely fail when it gets to the data entry into >>>>> the >>>>> blockchain. >>>>> >>>>> After working with some startups I am very familiar with how easy it >>>>> is to separate people from large sums of money by making magical claims >>>>> that aren't backed up by reality, investment in a technology and the >>>>> actual >>>>> utility of the technology don't correlate. >>>>> >>>>> And as far as smart contracts go, never sign a contract you don't >>>>> understand. Someone with my skills would be able to make a contract that >>>>> does whatever I want it to do and have it all be essentially invisible to >>>>> someone who isn't intimately familiar with the technology that goes >>>>> though >>>>> the code line by line to verify every part of it. >>>>> As as example: >>>>> https://kf106.medium.com/how-to-sleepmint-nft-tokens-bc347dc148f2 >>>>> >>>>> For ip protection, if Sony (or any other large monied entity) wanted >>>>> to claim ownership of anything I have created I would bet on their money >>>>> and lawyers over any proof I have of ownership every time, regardless of >>>>> what proof of ownership I have, no matter how impossible it is to >>>>> counterfeit. >>>>> >>>>> But, all of that is off topic, to address the original topic, there >>>>> are three questions that need to be answered: what, how and why. >>>>> Why is easy, because it could be interesting. So we don't have to >>>>> worry about that. >>>>> What is the important one that hasn't been answered aside from a >>>>> legally untested method for proof of ip ownership. And that isn't a >>>>> method >>>>> for tiddlywiki so much as just an option using external tools. And given >>>>> what I know, I would never accept a hash stored on a blockchain as the >>>>> only >>>>> proof of a claim if there were any significant consequences related to it. >>>>> It is impossible to answer how without answering what first. >>>>> >>>>> So, what would any blockchain technology do in tiddlywiki? Without >>>>> that we may as well say 'should we incorporate Ingenuity flying on mars >>>>> into tiddlywiki?' No one is going to claim that Ingenuity isn't important >>>>> or worth paying attention to, but what does the question even mean? It is >>>>> just gibberish without some idea of what 'incorporate' would involve. >>>>> >>>>> This is the exact same question as before and it needs an answer >>>>> before there is any chance of discussion other than playing buzzword >>>>> bingo. >>>>> Like what does 'a blockchain of secure tiddlers' mean in practical terms? >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:07:54 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Mart, >>>>>> >>>>>> I applaud your raising blockchain as a possible integration to >>>>>> tiddlywiki. >>>>>> >>>>>> I spent some time researching the technology, but I could not build >>>>>> an instance, nor am I an expert, however some thoughts; >>>>>> >>>>>> I think it could be a good technology to make use of with tiddlywiki, >>>>>> especially since it does promote secure sharing, unalterable "documents" >>>>>> and cutting out the middlemen (which is some ways a feature of >>>>>> tiddlywiki), >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps the first application I can see is if there were a way to >>>>>> publish selected tiddlers into a blockchain, effectively small >>>>>> documents. A >>>>>> range of features not possible in standard tiddlywiki would then become >>>>>> available to tiddlywiki users and designers. In this case we would look >>>>>> at >>>>>> a providing secure, certified shared information services via such a >>>>>> blockchain and to users of tiddlywiki. Plugins and utility data could be >>>>>> published to the blockchain for public access and private tiddlers for >>>>>> security `between wikis and wiki users. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now this somewhat simplified description of a block chain of secure >>>>>> tiddlers could actually generate a wide number of seriously powerful >>>>>> solutions, by keeping it to a simple set of enabling blockchain >>>>>> technologies linked to the tiddler. I have cultivated a creative side to >>>>>> my >>>>>> use of Information Technology and can imagine many possibilities, but I >>>>>> will not extrapolate for know asI hope others may contribute ideas >>>>>> unaffected by what I think. >>>>>> >>>>>> As a person concerned with environmental damage I would be keen not >>>>>> to develop a mining process that costs so much computing power as just >>>>>> bitcoin is already using a substantial percentage of total world >>>>>> computing >>>>>> and power resources. I am not sure what this means for our possible uses. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Tones >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sunday, 9 May 2021 at 19:26:17 UTC+10 Mat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> @inmysocks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a very sober approach - but/and which I don't think anyone >>>>>>> has contradicted. My question is; *could *blockchain somehow be of >>>>>>> value for TW? I would not be surprised if it could, especially for >>>>>>> aspects >>>>>>> that we currently disregard or dismiss for TW. After all, TW is very >>>>>>> generic so one way of looking at the question is if there are non-TW >>>>>>> use >>>>>>> cases that where blockchain is advantagous or even critical, and only >>>>>>> *then* ask if TW could be incorporated and bring value in that >>>>>>> context. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interestingly, you question the value of blockchain tech per se and >>>>>>> identify a single use case (NFT's for collectable toys). I didn't >>>>>>> intend >>>>>>> for this thread to go there but I guess it's run its course so: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can see many use cases where blockchains make sense: One general >>>>>>> area is "traceability". For example a *car blockchain* that tracks >>>>>>> ownership of cars, their mileage, repairs etc. Or a housing registry. >>>>>>> Makes >>>>>>> a lot of sense to me. I can also see how central banks / nations would >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> full control over their money flows. Here's >>>>>>> <https://www.winnesota.com/blockchain>a use general case for >>>>>>> "logistics" and explanation for why blockchain tech supposedly is >>>>>>> perfect >>>>>>> for it. If nothing else, the article should make it clear (at least to >>>>>>> me) >>>>>>> that it can be difficult to see the use of blockchain if one doesn't >>>>>>> actually know of the needs for the particular business. Other than >>>>>>> traceability, blockchains also bring the smart contract aspect that >>>>>>> cuts >>>>>>> out middle men for transactions. A pretty big deal and potentially an >>>>>>> enormous money saver. And, if nothing else, at least the potential for >>>>>>> decentralized control of things should resonate with TW folks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Disclaimer: I know very little about blockchain tech but it is >>>>>>> becoming a mature technology and there's billions USD poured into it... >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> there has to be *something *to it, I figure... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <:-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/3faaf434-4583-44f3-ba94-0ab57865b693n%40googlegroups.com.
