Hi Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally well to these devices.
Bob > On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham <[email protected]> wrote: > > Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH? > Don > > Bob Camp >> Hi >> >> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!! >> >> Bob >> >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run >>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal >>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and >>> disciplining to the 1PPS. >>> >>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things are >>> looking very good. >>> >>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will post >>> that here when I am done. >>> >>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the >>> project. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Dan >>> >>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible >>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100% >>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick different >>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with an >>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001. >>>> >>>> That kicks you back to 20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon >>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms since >>>> then. >>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call >>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS receivers. >>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you >>>> have a LOT of changes. >>>> >>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the REF-0, >>>> with >>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high >>>> stability / >>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity >>>> GPS to >>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds. >>>> >>>> ============ >>>> >>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !! >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware. >>>>> >>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore >>>>> receivers. >>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to >>>>> use a new >>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the >>>>> messages >>>>> required to do that. >>>>> >>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as >>>>> ASCII >>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited >>>>> with >>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and >>>>> after many >>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them. >>>>> >>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The >>>>> problem >>>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels >>>>> while >>>>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is >>>>> two >>>>> more groups of satellite data. >>>>> >>>>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages. >>>>> Considering >>>>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to [email protected] >>>>> for >>>>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please >>>>> make a >>>>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a >>>>> 28 volt >>>>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being >>>>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other >>>>> stuff. >>>>> >>>>> Bill Hawkins >>>>> Bloomington, MN 55438 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob >>>>> Camp >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM >>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone >>>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA >>>>> era >>>>> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information. >>>>> The signal >>>>> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it >>>>> worth >>>>> playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound >>>>> reasonable. >>>>> >>>>> As with any absolute statement, there are sure to be exceptions >>>>> .. >>>>> >>>>> ====== >>>>> >>>>> For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations. >>>>> The KS >>>>> does not care that it always sees the same sats at the same locations >>>>> directly >>>>> over its own north pole location. It just wants data in the field. >>>>> >>>>> It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here >>>>> and there. >>>>> None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore >>>>> strings >>>>> are something Mr Google knows a lot about. >>>>> >>>>> If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox, >>>>> remember that >>>>> each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS >>>>> fired relative to >>>>> things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the >>>>> time label wrong >>>>> is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical >>>>> evidence of >>>>> what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. Its far >>>>> harder to track down >>>>> when only looking at the outside of the device. >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dan exactly my thinking. >>>>>> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock. >>>>>> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think >>>>> there is >>>>>> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real >>>>> oncore >>>>>> or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats >>>>>> needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all >>>>>> easily do a fixed string. >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Paul >>>>>> WB8TSL >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok, >>>>> and >>>>>>> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code >>>>> can be >>>>>>> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using >>>>> a ~$1 >>>>>>> chip. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should >>>>> still be >>>>>>> quite easy to do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a >>>>> Jupiter-T >>>>>>> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very >>>>> nicely >>>>>>> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's >>>>> notes and >>>>>>> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dan >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Looking forward to the notes. >>>>>>>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that >>>>>>>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps >>>>> after >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with >>>>> the >>>>>>>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low >>>>> end >>>>>>> ones >>>>>>>> will do that stunt very easily. >>>>>>>> That would be pretty sweet. >>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>> WB8TSL >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably >>>>> take a >>>>>>>>> few days >>>>>>>>> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What you will need: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1) A working REF-0 >>>>>>>>> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going >>>>>>>>> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do) >>>>>>>>> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time its booted, there is >>>>> no >>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> More to follow. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bob, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would like that information too please and thank you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second >>>>> REF-0 >>>>>>>>> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet >>>>> to >>>>>>> figure >>>>>>>>> out what is needed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position >>>>> locked in >>>>>>>>> and spitting out the right strings. >>>>>>>>>>> Thats all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply >>>>> grabs >>>>>>>>> the data off of the string >>>>>>>>>>> as it comes by. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ill see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off >>>>> list. >>>>>>>>> Its buried around here somewhere. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have some Motorola Oncore available. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal >>>>> lines"? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box >>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>>>> All of the work decoding >>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off >>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string >>>>> that >>>>>>>>> looks like the output >>>>>>>>>>>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple >>>>> manipulation >>>>>>>>> of the signal lines. >>>>>>>>>>>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellows! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without >>>>> GPS, >>>>>>>>> as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to >>>>>>>>> configure it? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 + >>>>> USD >>>>>>>>> 52.30 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as >>>>> custom >>>>>>>>> taxes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > -- > "If you don't know what it is, > don't poke it." > Ghost in the Shell > ------------------------------- > "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere" > > Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL > Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road > Huson, MT, 59846 > mailing address: POBox 404 > Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 > > VOX 406-626-4304 > CEL 406-241-5093 > Skype: buffler2 > www.lightningforensics.com > www.sixmilesystems.com > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
