I would rather let waters stay still. I am behaving and so is Jon.
However, you choused to write about this mess on the list again. So, I
will answer on the list. I hope this does not (re)start anything.
Everything I am writing here was already told before in previous postings.
Maybe you had no patience to read all the stuff behind - and I can
understand that.
My reply follows:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Duncan Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 22:14
>
> On 1/18/01 2:49 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Jon isn't the most polite of people sometimes, but he does have valid
> concerns wrt stability and following the rules that we have at the ASF. If
> you disagree with what somebody says, it is easy to just say that they
> aren't making sense. It takes two to fight, and you are doing
> more than your share.
Jon often is right and I never denied that. The problem only had to do with
the frequent lack of a minimum of respect and politeness.
Also, IMHO, he crossed the line of harassment with Costin and was at least
around that border with me. But after I did what I did, I don't complain any
more.
> As far as the dial-ins -- I'm disappointed as well that they were not as
> well used as they could have been.
Understandable.
But you are not telling me and others how I should have used the connection
and how I am a bad boy for not doing it and so on.
That was the issue. Jon know nothing about the lives and problems of several
people that he flamed because of not dialing in.
> ...
> > He always wants to have the last word. Usually (because he is
> part of the
> > clique?) no one asks him to stop. So, this time, I have just
> kept answering
> > to him to see what happens.
>
> Jon was around since *way* back in Jserv days. Does that make him part of
> the clique? Probably. Face it, cliques happen. Open Source is
> built on trust
> more than anything else and Jon has built up more Open Source
> projects than
> I can keep track of.
I respect Jon's many merits. Just have a problem with these specific issues.
I also have no problem about the existence of cliques like the core Apache
team. Any organization needs a core and I think that this is a strong one.
However, I think that this kind of clique must rule by example.
It gets specially bad when, repeated times, I get reprehended by members of
that clique by _imitating_ Jon's attitude while he doesn't.
(Some people did criticize Jon or both of us too. I also noticed that.)
> I won't ask Jon to stop arguing just like I won't ask Costin or Craig. It
> may more may not be constructive, but email is the mechanism that we have
> and flames are par for course. The point at which to ask people to stop is
> when posts cross the line and become "harassment".
I think that line was crossed 1st by him and then, according to some
interpretations, by me.
However, people should notice I never had this attitude with anyone else. I
had a reaction and not an initiative.
> > It surprises me that, instead of asking Jon (the PMC member
> that should set
> > the example) to stop, you are asking me.
>
> So as a PMC member, he shouldn't voice an opinion? That's akin to
> what I've
> been told that as PMC chair, I have to put my opinions aside.
> That of course
> is utter bs. If you're on the PMC, it's because you are supposed to *have*
> an opinion.
Please read again what I wrote.
Someone (more than once, different people) asked me to stop because I was
replying without quitting to anything Jon posted just as he was replying to
me (as you wrote, it takes two!).
So, Jon and I were doing the same (bad) thing, but only I got reprehended
that time. Reprehending both (or none) would be a lot more coherent.
I started this whole thing because almost no one dares to criticize Jon.
Everybody else had to quit replying his attacks and he always had the last
word even while being quite impolite. And almost no third party would dare
to complain about it. I did quit threads like this several times and got
fed up about it.
Silence from Apache veterans was too "loud" in this situations - while
some of them tend to reprehend other people if they do similar things.
I wanted to see how far this could go.
Anyway, Jon is doing a lot of really constructive work now. And, like
anyone else, he does a lot more constructive stuff when he is not into
flame wars, since these take time and energy.
So, I hope everything goes on like it is now and another mess does not
start again. I did not say anything new in this posting.
> James Duncan Davidson
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> !try; do()
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
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