On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:46:02 -0700 Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> �
>
> David Miller wrote:
>
> > DaveH:
> > > That is what Glenn wants you to think about
> > > the BofM.� However, he taking a few passages
> > > and then spinning them to make it sound like the
> > > BofM "denys the validity of the Bible".� Quite the
> > > contrary.
> >
> > Dave, I think the Book of Mormon speaks deceptively about the
> Bible.
>
> DAVEH:� You can think what you want, but IMO the BofM does not
> denigrate the Bible.
>
> > If the
> > book of Mormon came right out and denied the Bible, it would never
> have been
> > accepted in its day.� There probably would be no Mormonism today.
> >
> > However, by showing alliance with the Bible, but then within it,
> after
> > people have begun to accept it, then it teaches the inadequacies
> of the
> > Bible to stand by itself, then it creates that deception whereby
> people are
> > led to believe as you do that the Bible is an arbitrary collection
> of books,
>
> DAVEH:� LDS theology, nor the BofM teach that.� I came to that
> conclusion from the way the Bible has been treated by Christians in
> the past.� It has changed with time, and it happened before JS's
> time.� To me it seems somewhat arbitrary, depending on how
> people perceive what the Lord wants them to believe.� Even today,
> the RCC recognizes the Apocrypha, while most Protestants don't.� If
> that isn't an arbitrary decision, how do you see it?
***Blainer) I don't know what the RCC is, so can't understand anything
from this point. Please give me a clue, since I am so totally unschooled
in what you guys are duscussing.
>
> > created by men
>
> DAVEH:� It was revealed to men (prophets) by the Lord.� Since then,
> it has been in the hands of men as it has been translated and
> transcribed.� Seems to me that you would agree with me so far, or do
> you dispute that?
>
> > with many mistakes in translation and transmission.
>
> DAVEH:� I have pointed out a few translation errors that you didn't
> dispute, so it seems obvious that errors of translation have
> occurred.� I'm certainly no scholar, but I'd bet that you know of
> transmission errors that have occurred as well, though they
> may not seem particularly severe to you.� Am I wrong in this?
>
> > DaveH wrote:
> > > The BofM quotes much material from Bible sources.
> > > It states on its title page that it is a second witness of
> > > Christ, the Bible being the first witness.
> >
> > How do you explain that the original title page of the 1830
> edition that
> > Joseph Smith first published did not have anything indicating that
> it was a
> > "second witness" of Christ?
>
> DAVEH:� Those were my words paraphrasing what I understand the title
> page to say.� To quote it........
>
> "......and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus
> is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all
> nations."
>
> .......To me, the Bible is the first witness to convince the Jews
> and Gentiles of Christ's divinity, and the BofM is the second
> witness to such.
>
> > �Furthermore, the original title page says that
> > Joseph Smith was the author and proprietor of the work.
>
> DAVEH:� That is correct, the 1830 edition states such.� It is
> somewhat like the OT starts with.......
>
> "The First Book of Moses --- called --- GENESIS
>
> ........It was revealed by the Lord, but Moses (or JS in this
> instance) saw to it that it was recorded for others to read.
>
> > DaveH wrote:
> > > Nephi devotes
> > > an entire chapter to explaining that the Lord has revealed
> > > his will to people other than the Jews.� I'll quote it.......
> > *********
> >
> > 2 Nephi 29
> > [1] But behold, there shall be many -- at that day when I shall
> proceed to
> > do a marvelous work among them, that I may
> > remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men,
> that I may
> > set my hand again the second time to
> > recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
> > [2] And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made
> unto thee,
> > Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would
> > remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed
> forth out
> > of my mouth unto your seed; and my words
> > shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto
> my people,
> > which are of the house of Israel;
> > [3] And because my words shall hiss forth -- many of the Gentiles
> shall say:
> > A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there
> > cannot be any more Bible.
> > [4] But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible;
> and it
> > shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient
> > covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which
> they
> > receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean?
> > Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of
> the Jews,
> > and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth
> > salvation unto the Gentiles?
> > [5] O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient
> covenant
> > people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have
> > hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I
> will return
> > all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord
> > have not forgotten my people.
> > [6] Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and
> we need no
> > more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by
> > the Jews?
> > [7] Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not
> that I,
> > the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I
> > remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule
> in the
> > heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring
> > forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the
> nations of
> > the earth?
> > [8] Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my
> word? Know
> > ye not that the testimony of two nations is a
> > witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like
> unto
> > another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one
> > nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run
> together the
> > testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
> > [9] And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same
> yesterday,
> > today, and forever; and that I speak forth my
> > words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have
> spoken one
> > word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak
> > another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be
> until the end
> > of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
> > [10] Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose
> that it
> > contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that
> > I have not caused more to be written.
> > [11] For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and
> in the
> > north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea,
> > that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out
> of the
> > books which shall be written I will judge the world, every
> > man according to their works, according to that which is written.
> > [12] For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write
> it; and I
> > shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall
> > write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the
> house of
> > Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I
> > shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall
> write it.
> > [13] And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words
> of the
> > Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of
> > the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of
> the lost
> > tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have
> > the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
> > [14] And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the
> house of
> > Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their
> > possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will
> show unto
> > them that fight against my word and against my
> > people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I
> covenanted
> > with Abraham that I would remember his seed
> > forever.
> > *********
> >
> > I find it very difficult to understand how anyone reading the
> above passage
> > accepts that it was written around 550 B.C.� To believe such a
> notion, a
> > person absolutely must believe that the Book of Mormon had much
> greater
> > prophets than those who wrote the Bible.
>
> DAVEH:� I don't know why you would say that.� The Bible prophets
> like Moses, Abraham & Isaiah were no slouches!� <VBG>
>
> > �Nowhere do we find this kind of
> > insight into the 19th century mindset,
>
> DAVEH:� I would disagree.� IMO, Isaiah was such a prophet.....but
> perhaps you would disagree.
>
> > unless, of course, we accept the idea
> > that it was not authored in 550 B.C., but rather in the early 19th
> century.
> >
> > Dave, unlike Blaine,
>
> DAVEH:� I don't recall Blaine ever suggesting the BofM prophets were
> superior to Bible prophets.� If you specifically remember a comment
> from his to that effect, I'd sure like to read it to get the context.
>
> > you tend to place the Book of Mormon prophets at a
> > similar level to the Biblical prophets.� Surely you must see the
> problem
> > with doing that.
>
> DAVEH:� No, I don't see the problem.� If the Lord reveals himself to
> a prophet, whether minor or major.....he is still a prophet.� The
> Bible and the BofM both have their share of major & minor prophets.�
> To me there is nothing to differentiate the
> prophets of the Bible to the BofM.
>
> > �Where in the Bible do we see such foresight as what you
> > quote above?
>
> DAVEH:� Isaiah.
>
> > It seems much more likely that Joseph Smith authored those
> > words, which would be more concordant with the original title page
> of the
> > Book of Mormon, which said, "By Joseph Smith, Junior, Author and
> > Proprietor."
>
> DAVEH:� JS is the prophet the Lord chose to bring about the BofM.��
> On the same title page that you find claim of 'JS's authorship', you
> will also find an explanation of what the BofM is........
>
> "An account written by the hand of Mormon, upon plates taken from
> the plates of Nephi"
>
> .........and it goes on to explain........
>
> "......sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to
> come forth in due time by the way of Gentile; the interpretation
> thereof by the gift of God;......."
>
> ........DavidM, if you feel that JS's claim of authorship on the
> title page is a problem, I have to disagree with you.� JS obviously
> gave credit to the original source of the BofM.
>
> > Peace be with you.
> > David Miller.
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Dave Hansen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.langlitz.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> �
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
> may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you
> have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who
wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be
subscribed.
