Hi Chris. Let's cut through the smoke screen you put up. John 8:31 says,
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in MY WORD [does not say Torah], then are ye MY DISCIPLES [does not say sanctified] indeed." Notice that this passage is about "MY WORD" (the Word of Christ) and not about Torah, the law. It is also about being "MY DISCIPLES" (disciples of Christ) and not about sanctification as opposed to justification. Chris wrote: > THEY GOT MAD. "Hey, we don't have to do > anything else. We're already free." So obviously, "MY WORD" is not Torah observance, because these Jews which believed upon him were already keeping the Torah with regard to Sabbath, circumcision, kosher eating, etc. Their objection was not about "doing anything else." Their objection was the implication that they needed to be free when they were so Torah observant. By the way, Chris, you need to be free too. Do you get mad when I tell you that? :-) Chris wrote: > "For Moses of old time hath in every city them > that preach him, being read in the synagogues > every sabbath day." > Notice, "For" ... that means BECAUSE. This is > the reason they STARTED them with only these > four necessary things. BECAUSE Moses (Torah) > is read EVERY SABBATH DAY. That's > AFFIRMATION of BOTH The Sabbath Day being > kept and Torah being followed. > ... > Torah is a SANCTIFICATION issue and not a > JUSTIFICATION issue. Where do you get "SANCTIFICATION" from any of these passages? You could just as easily have said, "Torah is a VOLUNTARY issue and not a JUSTIFICATION issue." It seems to me that James was saying that if any of these Gentiles want to become Jews, they can go to the synagogues and learn what it is to become Jews if they so choose. However, to become a disciple of Jesus, to continue in Christ's Word, they do not have to be Torah observant. James clearly said in effect: "If the Gentiles want to be disciples of Jesus, they need not be Torah observant, but if they have an interest in Torah observance, they have Moses and can learn about it in the synagogues." How can anyone be justified by Christ without being a disciple of Jesus? This seems to be the outcome of your teaching here, that people can be justified by faith in Christ without being a disciple of Christ. How can you possibly agree with this viewpoint? The problem with the Gentile question was that some Jews said that the believers in Antioch needed to continue moving forward and keep all the Torah. They were being encouraged to become circumcised, and to keep all the law of Moses. Paul objected to this teaching. Was Paul against Sanctification? I don't think so. Yet, this is the conclusion which we must reach when we follow your logic. Paul perceived that trust in law and trust in Christ do not mix. This is what Michael is teaching. While I agree with you that one may trust Christ and be Torah observant, I do not believe that one may trust in Torah observance and trust in Christ at the same time. They are two different models of obtaining righteousness. The Torah observance makes nobody holy or sanctified. Faith in Christ is the only way to holiness and sanctification. Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
