Perry wrote: > I do believe that we are expected to keep the > commandments, which are outlined by Jesus in > the verses below, and in other places in the > scriptures. However, I do not believe that we > are expected to live sinless lives...in fact, > I believe that we cannot. The verse "be ye > therefore perfect because your father in heaven > is perfect" is the passage commonly used as a > prooftext for this belief, but if one considers > what "perfect" meant in 1611, it does not mean > the same as it does today.
The word "perfect" didn't have just one use in 1611, and neither is there only one use of the word "perfect" today. Compare the KJV of Philippians 3:12 and 3:15. The first word perfect there is used in the sense of finished, complete, and absolutely no room for change. The second word is used in the sense of mature. With regard to modern times, people often say things like, "She has perfect teeth" or "Everything was absolutely perfect!" or "the cake was perfect." When they do use the word "perfect" in this way, they don't mean that there was absolutely no chance of anything being better, but that there was nothing noteworthy to criticize. The word "perfect" in modern use often means that it simply meets with all expectations. I do not believe that anybody living has yet achieved the kind of perfection mentioned in Philippians 3:12, but I do believe that people can achieve the perfection referred to in Philippians 3:15. Sometimes people say that when Jesus lived and ministered on earth, prior to his crucifixion, that he was perfect. Such comments cannot truthfully mean that he was perfect in the sense of Philippians 3:12, only in the sense of Philippians 3:15. Consider the following passages about Jesus: Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. Of course, we also know that Jesus had not attained to the resurrection until later, so we must agree that Jesus was not perfect in the sense of Philippians 3:12. We understand from Scripture that Jesus was someone who grew in wisdom, stature, obedience, and was made perfect through a process of time while also being perfect in the sense that whereto he had attained at any given age, he was exactly as God expected him to be. He did not sin. So I would say that Jesus was our perfect example, and we ought to conform to his image in every way. If Jesus did not sin, then neither do we, if we apply our faith and trust in him. He is able to keep us from all sin, as Paul says: 1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. And John also testifies to this work of Christ in us: 1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Perry wrote: > Additional verses are found in 1 John 1:9,10. > Why would we need to confess sins if we do > not sin? The context of these verses you reference clearly shows that everyone needs Christ to deal with sin. Nevertheless, the promise is that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to CLEANSE US from all unrighteousness. This means that we can expect not to continue in those sins. Those who are cleansed of unrighteousness should never say that they are unrighteous. Let's look at the passages you quote in context and you will see that they do not offer an excuse for believers to continue to sin. The ones he is addressing to confess their sins are those who think they have no need of Christ because they have no problem of sin. It's like what Jesus said in John 9:41, "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." Following is the full context of the verses you referenced. I will add some commentary between them to help you see my thoughts as I read this passage. 1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. God is pure and sinless, in Him is NO DARKNESS AT ALL. 1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: If we claim to have fellowship with God, and we walk in darkness (sin), we lie and do not the truth. So a person who has fellowship with God will not sin. 1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. The blood of Christ deals with the sin problem in us, cleansing us from its work and effect, and causing us to walk in light (holiness and purity) rather than darkness (sin, impurity). 1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If someone thinks they don't need Christ to be holy, they are deceived. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is how the blood of Christ is appropriated. We acknowledge and confess our sins, then his work can take effect, bringing both forgiveness (the release from God's wrath and penalty for sin) and cleansing (freedom from the filth, defilement, captivity and bondage that sin brings). 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned (past tense), and therefore do not need Christ's blood for forgiveness and cleansing, we make God a liar who has declared that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. 1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: The whole purpose in John writing was so that they would "SIN NOT." This is the same admonition the Lord gave to the woman caught in adultery, "GO AND SIN NO MORE." He says *IF* (not when) any man sin, we have an advocate, Jesus Christ THE RIGHTEOUS. 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Let us not forget that Jesus is the sacrifice and substitute offering for not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world. Let us be humble, and not have a elitist attitude that only we Christians have the exclusive corner on the work of Christ. 1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. We know that we know Jesus, if we do not sin. 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. The person who says he knows Christ, but sins, he is a liar. The truth is not in him. 1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. We know that we are in him when we experience his power that transforms our lives and causes us to walk in holiness and purity. 1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. If we say that we abide in Christ, we can expect to walk morally just like Jesus walked. If we say that Jesus did not sin, then we can expect Christ to work in us in such a way that we do not sin. As it says later in this same epistle: 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. As Jesus is, so are we in this world. Jesus is our perfect example, and he works in us that we might live, move, and have our being in Him, and in him is no darkness whatsoever. Perry wrote: > I did not see keeping the sabbath in there. Did you? > Looks like it is not necessary to keep the sabbath > in order to "enter into life". At least that is what > Jesus told the "one" that asked. Why would he omit > the first through fourth commandments in His response? Jesus' first answer was to keep the commandments, period. Then he was asked, "which ones." Then Jesus listed half of the ten commandments, and one that was not part of the Decalogue (although this commandment was excluded from Luke's account of the incident). I do not think this list was meant to be an exclusive list of only those commandments necessary. It was simply a sample of some of the commandments which Jesus was teaching needed to be kept. I think it was prudent for Jesus not to mention the Sabbath because this was a primary commandment which he was accused of breaking. To mention it might have caused controversy and accusations which would detract from what he was teaching. I believe that Jesus kept the Sabbath holy, but not in the way that the Pharisees considered orthodox. Do you believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath? Do you believe that Jesus taught others to break the Sabbath? If so, are there any passages of Scripture that you think reveal this idea? The commandments that Jesus did list are interesting. They are the part of the Decalogue that has to do with sin against man. He did not mention the commandments that had to do with sin against God. The tenth commandment, which is against covetousness, was not mentioned. Many people consider this a sin against others, but it really is a sin against self. It is a form of idolatry and has more to do with hurting oneself than others. If I covet my neighbor's home or car, how does that hurt him unless it goes further and I steal from him? So the sin of covetousness is very much like the first two commandments of the Decalogue, which is against idolatry and an error that hurts oneself and God. The commandment that Jesus added was the need to love your neighbor as yourself (as recorded in Mat. 19:19), or not to defraud others (as recorded in Mark 10:19). I think this was added because it zeroed in on the man's problem. He was covetous. It is interesting that Jesus did not mention the tenth commandment. He listed them right up to the tenth commandment, then skipped over it and said, "love your neighbor as yourself." When the man justified himself, then Jesus said, "if you will be perfect, sell that you have, give to the poor, and follow me." I find all this interesting because it is an example of Jesus being shrewd, partly confrontational and partly mysterious in his approach to teaching. The commandment that was not part of the Decalogue surely stuck out like a sore thumb. This made his teaching confrontational. Furthermore, the effect of the teaching was such that the man did not accept the teaching, but went away sorrowful. Today I think there are many Christians that would have told Jesus that he was unloving, and should have led the man into saying the sinner's prayer instead of causing him to feel condemned as a sinner. I'm sure that there are many Christians today that would tell someone using this same approach that more souls could be won for the Lord by using honey instead of vinegar. :-) Nevertheless, there was something mysterious in how Jesus taught here in that he did not berate the man, but rather he pointed out the commandments of God clearly, then called upon him to obey them. The condemnation that ensued was brought about not by Jesus so much as by the man's own self delusion that he had kept the commandments. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
