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Hey David:
I am not in a position to either agree or argue. I have never been to either place and have always gotten bored and fell asleep when I started reading Josephus. I do know that Lazarus and the rich man were in two seperate places with a great gulf between them. One was bound for Heaven and one was bound for hell. Just where these places are or what they are called seems to depend on the source of your information. What I know for certain came from the Bible. What I assumed to be true came from Harper's Bible dictionary.
I know for certain that the thief went to Heaven. Some day I hope to talk to him.
Terry
-------Original Message-------
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 09:39:16
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Paradise
Terry wrote:
> The other place, where the unsaved were held, is
> known as Sheol, and there was a great gulf between
> the two. People in Sheol were waiting to go to
> Gehenna, or Hell as we commonly call it.
Just a minor comment for the sake of semantic accuracy. Doesn't the
understanding of Abraham's Bosom / Paradise come primarily from the
work, "Josephus' discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades"? If so, then
perhaps we should base our language and descriptions upon this work.
Note that Hades and Sheol are the same place, Sheol being the Hebrew
word, and Hades being the Greek word. I think we agree on that.
This work I have mentioned signifies Hades as being the place where both
righteous and unrighteous souls are detained. It also says, "In this
region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable
fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is
prepared for a day aforedetermined by God..." It also says, "For there
is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands
an archangel with an host." It continues, "the just are guided to the
right hand ... unto a region of light ... This place we call 'The Bosom
of Abraham'." The treatise continues, "But as to the unjust, they are
dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment
.... those angels ... drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself;
who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do
not stand clear of the hot vapor itself ... they are struck with a
fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished
thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the
fathers of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and
large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath
compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor ... pass over it."
So it seems to me that if the foundation for your understanding is based
upon this work, it ought to speak in a way that Sheol is the place in
which hell fire (Gehenna) resides, and also where Paradise / Abraham's
Bosom resides (these being the same place) on the right hand, and the
place of torments being on the left hand. In other words, all of this
is in Sheol, in some subterraneous region in the depths of the earth.
Of course, we recognize that those in Paradise have since the death of
Christ been moved to heaven, but prior to that time, it seems that the
Jewish understanding of Sheol was a place for all the dead not just some
of the dead. It is Sheol which was divided into the place for the
righteous and the place for the unrighteous. If you see it differently,
I would welcome hearing your thoughts about it.
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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