michael douglas wrote:
DAVEH: Then what do you make of Jesus' comment to Mary two days after his death.......DAVEH: I disagree Michael. Now you are making an assumption.......that when Peter said that, that Peter's comment meant that from the time of Christ's death.Peter says that the heaven must retain Jesus until a certain time arrives. This tells us that after His ascension He is not going to any prison to preach to anyone.Michael D: Not really, but from the time of His ascencion into heaven.
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:......." Jn 20:17
........does that not imply that he had not yet ascended to heaven until the 3rd day?
As Hebrews 1 points out He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, after He had by Himself purged our sins.DAVEH: The question becomes 'how immediately' did he do that. Within hours.....or days?So it could not have been from that time of Peters comment, per se as you suggest below. He may have been speaking about from that time (of Peter's comment) that Jesus would be retained in heaven. FWIW......I don't even think Peter meant it in that way though.DAVEH: The question then becomes, 'how soon did that happen?' As Jn 20:17 implies, it was not the same day he died, but rather it was a couple days later.DAVEH: If my memory serves correctly (and I could search it out to make sure, but I'd like to get some sleep tonight), there are other TTers (Glenn comes to mind) who suggested Jesus descended into the depths of hell BEFORE ascending to heaven. Do you agree, Michael? If so.....it seems that would qualify for the 'prison' referred to by Peter, would it not?He is not leaving heaven till that time. I Thess. 4:16 describes this to us in some detail:For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first...
Hebrews 1:13 further states:
But to which of the angels said He at any time, Sit on My right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
The point here is that after the ascension, Jesus is presented as firmly entrenched in heaven, at the right hand of the Father (as Stephen saw Him when he was being martyred).
I would agree with that view. That's why I see it as a once-for-all deal. Once He did that, He arose, ascended up on high and sat down at the right hand of the Father.
DAVEH: I'm not sure I would agree with that. I think you are interpreting Scripture a bit too strictly in this case. However, my point is that he did some things prior to his ascension. IF that is true, then when he said he'd be with the thief in paradise "THAT (the day of his death) day", then one might want to consider that paradise and heaven may not be synonomous.Do you think that 'prison' would have been heaven, Terry? I don't.I agree with you 100% that prison would not be in heaven, and therefore must repeat that Jesus could not go/have gone to that prison since his ascension,
DAVEH: I'd be interested in knowing what you think the "restitution of all things" means.since He is held in heaven till His enemies are made His footstool/till the times of restitutionof all things spoken by all the holy prophets.
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Dave Hansen
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