michael douglas wrote:
Michael D: Hey Dave H, how would you reconcile the points mentioned below with the idea that Jesus preaches to folks in spirit prison? Any offerings?michael douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Michael D: Please permit me a few observations on this topic, gentlemen...Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Terry Clifton wrote:
To DaveH:A short time back, if I remember correctly, you said that in your opinion, people do not die and go to Heaven. I gathered from what you were saying that Paradise and Heaven were two separate places, and that Paradise was sort of a holding place for the spirits of the dead, while their bodies are waiting resurrection.
DAVEH: Yes, that is close to what I was explaining before. As we know from the Bible, Jesus said he'd be with the thief in paradise on "that day", or the day they both died. Yet he did not ascend to his Father in Heaven until the 3rd day, as he explained to Mary. (Jn 20:17)
If I am a little foggy on this, feel free to correct me, because at the time I simply dismissed the whole matter. In any case, you felt that no one was yet in Heaven. I bring this up again because as I was reading my Bible this morning, I noticed that Paul said in Phil.1:23, that his desire was to depart and be with Christ.
DAVEH: Correct.......One would think that is the desire of all Christians.
Now we know that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven,
DAVEH: That may be, but it does not mean he's glued to the chair, so to speak. 1Pet 3:19 mentions that Jesus......"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."
.......which would indicate that he 'went' to a place where his Father was not, to preach to somebody.....presumably non-believers.
Michael D: Not necessarily, Dave H. You are making the assumption that:
i) Peter is not referring to a one-time occurence
ii) These occurences happen(ed) after Jesus' ascension.
DAVEH: Yes.......those are assumptions.
DAVEH: Hmmmmmm.......I don't perceive any problem at all with this.
The latter assumption immediately meets with a big problem...
DAVEH: As a tangent, Michael..........do you believe there has already been a "restitution of all things", or do you think it will happen in the future?Peter's statement in Acts 3:20. And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must retainuntil the times of restitution of all things,
DAVEH: I disagree Michael. Now you are making an assumption.......that when Peter said that, that Peter's comment meant that from the time of Christ's death. He may have been speaking about from that time (of Peter's comment) that Jesus would be retained in heaven. FWIW......I don't even think Peter meant it in that way though.which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.Peter says that the heaven must retain Jesus until a certain time arrives. This tells us that after His ascension He is not going to any prison to preach to anyone.
DAVEH: If my memory serves correctly (and I could search it out to make sure, but I'd like to get some sleep tonight), there are other TTers (Glenn comes to mind) who suggested Jesus descended into the depths of hell BEFORE ascending to heaven. Do you agree, Michael? If so.....it seems that would qualify for the 'prison' referred to by Peter, would it not?He is not leaving heaven till that time. I Thess. 4:16 describes this to us in some detail:For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first...
Hebrews 1:13 further states:
But to which of the angels said He at any time, Sit on My right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
The point here is that after the ascension, Jesus is presented as firmly entrenched in heaven, at the right hand of the Father (as Stephen saw Him when he was being martyred).
--Do you think that 'prison' would have been heaven, Terry? I don't.DAVEH: And that should be the desire of all Christians. However, that does not mean that it has to happen immediately.I agree with you 100% that prison would not be in heaven, and therefore must repeat that Jesus could not go/have gone to that prison since his ascension, since He is held in heaven till His enemies are made His footstool/till the times of restitution of all things spoken by all the holy prophets.
I believe after we die we await the resurrection in the spirit world, which is comprised of believers (so to speak) who are in a realm called paradise, and non believers who are in a spirit prison. There the gospel will be taught (1Pet 4:6) so that all men can face judgement on and equal basis.
and we know that Paul feels that if he dies (is executed) he will be with Jesus,
I will have to disagree with you Dave H. Paul said he was willing to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord (II Cor 5). He also clearly stated that he wanted to depart and to be with the Lord, but for the sake of the Philippians he would stay. It was an immediate thing (Phil 1). And even if it does happen immediately, it does not necessarily have to happen in heaven.
Based on the scriptures above, it will have no alternative but to happen in heaven. Jesus is stuck there under the Father's directive until the day of His return.
As with the thief, Jesus could meet any of us in the spirit world.
so evidently there is some room for error in your premise. A little further study reveals that Paradise is in the third Heaven, which is up, not down,(2 Cor. 12:1-5).So, looking in that direction, we find that the tree of life is in Paradise (Rev. 2:7) and we find that the tree of life is in Heaven (Rev.22:2) . To me, the obvious conclusion is that Paradise and Heaven are the same place.How 'bout them apples?DAVEH: Are "them apples" from the tree of life? <VBG> I believe paradise is used to symbolically denote several garden like realms where Christians exist, just as the tree of life was referred to in both the Garden of Eden and heaven..Terry
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Dave Hansen
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