DAVEH: My latest comments are in RED......
Kevin wrote:
> Go ahead, I did not think you wanted to talk to me, or answer questions.
DAVEH: Not at all, Kevin. I'd love to talk to you, but I don't want to do it at my expense! If you want to have a reasonable discussion....great. The problem I see is that many of your posts is that you are simply trying to attack the LDS Church on TT. If you merely want to bloody my nose....I'd rather not be your punching bag.
Now, if you look at your below comments, ask yourself how that is a reply/answer to my questions, "if you don't think being one with God means purpose.......Just what does oneness mean to you??? And, how can you become one with God if not in purpose???"? As I see it, to have a 'reasonable discussion', it requires a little give & take on both our parts. Instead of answering so I have an idea of what you believe one/oneness means, you want me to provide LDS (non Biblical) evidence to support my belief.
Well Kevin......I told you what I believe. And let me say that if you show me where I am wrong in that belief (about oneness), it is likely I will change my perspective a bit. At this point though, I don't feel compelled to defend my beliefs when I don't understand your beliefs. IOW....if you tell me something about how/what you believe that seems better than what I believe, then I may feel a bit more comfortable adopting your perspective. But.....I'm not at all interested in making myself a target for your pleasure.
Kevin Deegan wrote:
Just show me ONE verse that says "ONE in Purpose"BoM, D&C, JoD, Bible Is this not what you do with John 17 INSERT "IN PURPOSE" in your mind everytime you read ONE? John 10:30 I and my Father are one.The Jews understood full well was Jesus meant, they took up stones, because he "makest thyself God." verse 33
Surely they would not Stone him for being one in purpose. They wanted to stone him for making himself God.Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
DAVEH: OK Kevin, if you don't think being one with God means purpose.......Just what does oneness mean to you??? And, how can you become one with God if not in purpose???Kevin Deegan wrote:
DAVEH: I don't understand why that is so, DavidM. It is quite obvious
there are 3 persons/entities in the Godhead, just as there are 3
separate people in a family of two parents and a child. From what I've
observed, a lot of folks get hung up on the "oneness" of God. I don't see why that confuses people, because I believe John pretty well explained it in ch 17 to mean that their oneness implies a oneness of purpose.Another great example of ISOGESIS!Nowhere does john say One in purpose You insert your PRIVATE INTERPRETATION by Reading INTO the verse. YOU MUST do this otherwise the BoM presents a insurmountable obstacle to Mormon Doctrine. See below>
DAVEH: Yes, you are somewhat correct. I use purpose in a general sense to simply describe the implementation and execution of the plan of salvation in order that we can become one with God. IMHO, our penultimate purpose is to become one with and like our creator.
Now, Kevin......do you want to have a (two way) discussion....or would you prefer to lecture me as you have below?
--THIS IS HOW YOU & other LDS READ JOHN 17 That they all may be one IN PURPOSE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one IN PURPOSE in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one IN PURPOSE, even as we are one IN PURPOSE: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one IN PURPOSEIf they are IN anything it is each other as CLEARLY stated in the scriptures JOHN 17 "Father IN me and I IN thee"By the way the terms ONE in PURPOSE do Not appear in the Bom either!http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/thrwtnss testimony 3 witnesses:And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.It says: ONE GOD not 1 purpose!Here we have the Classic TRINITARIAN formulasuch as when TRUE Christians are baptized "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt 28:19).Notice it says NAME (SINGULAR) not NAMES as we would expect if it was in agreement with LDS doctrine. ONE GOD! Yet 3 in ONEMormon 7:7 unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God Alma 11:2828 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? 2929 And he answered, No.verse 44 Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal GodMoses 1:6 PGP there is NO God beside me2Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is ONE God, without end. Amen.DC 20:28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are ONE God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.
FATHER SON & HOLY GHOST = ONE GOD!Amen.
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Miller wrote:
> DaveH wrote:
> > I would be curious to know if most all TTers agree
> > with the separate entities belief. At this point...
> > few may want to offer their opinions. I'll ask
> > some Christians I know how they believe and report
> > back.
>
> Part of the problem here is that if they know you are Mormon, they will
> want to make sure that you do not think that they agree with you.DAVEH: Yeah......I know. Kinda sad, ain't it. I hope none feel as though I am out to trap them as Dean has expressed his fears. I think some may be more afraid of the reaction from other TTers if they agree with anything I say. I appreciate you
taking heat for some of the stuff you've agreed with me about.> Therefore, when you say "two entities" it is not the same idea that they
> have when they say "two persons." The unique concept in the Trinity is
> that they are distinct persons who are of the SAME SUBSTANCE.
> Therefore, the idea of "separate entities" per se can be misleading,
> especially if a polytheistic or henotheistic view is in mind.DAVEH: I don't understand why that is so, DavidM. It is quite obvious there are 3 persons/entities in the Godhead, just as there are 3 separate people in a family of two parents and a child. From what I've observed, a lot of folks get hung up on the
"oneness" of God. I don't see why that confuses people, because I believe John pretty well explained it in ch 17 to mean that their oneness implies a oneness of purpose.> Nevertheless, the relationship between a husband and wife exactly
> mirrors the relationship between the Father and the Son.DAVEH: Hmmmmm......I guess I should have read further before commenting above! :-)
> Therefore, in
> those ways in which you say that the husband and wife are separate
> persons or separate entities, so also you can say that the Father and
> the Son are separate. The husband does not exist without the wife, and
> likewise the wife does not exist without the husband. So it is with the
> Father and the Son.DAVEH: Agreed. You and I see this similarly DavidM, But I wonder how many others agree.
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
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http://www.langlitz.com
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