----- Original Message -----
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 1:31
PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] ad hominem
rule
> Blaine wrote to Perry:
> > Are you saying either DaveH or I deliberately mislead?
> > You seem to be implying this in some of your posts,
> > and particularly this one.
>
> Blaine, if it is ok with you and Perry, I would like to extend a little
> latitude about the ad hominem rule to explore this idea a little.
> Personally, I have found Perry's "definition alerts" helpful.
>
> Perry has the opinion that both you and DaveH knowingly mislead us by
> using these definitions. I'm not sure that is true, but it does seem
> like he might have a valid point. For example, if non-Mormons going to
> heaven does not mean the same thing to Mormons as it does to non-Mormons
> because Mormons believe in three heavens with very few people going to
> hell, that needs to be explained for proper communication to occur.
> > Are you saying either DaveH or I deliberately mislead?
> > You seem to be implying this in some of your posts,
> > and particularly this one.
>
> Blaine, if it is ok with you and Perry, I would like to extend a little
> latitude about the ad hominem rule to explore this idea a little.
> Personally, I have found Perry's "definition alerts" helpful.
>
> Perry has the opinion that both you and DaveH knowingly mislead us by
> using these definitions. I'm not sure that is true, but it does seem
> like he might have a valid point. For example, if non-Mormons going to
> heaven does not mean the same thing to Mormons as it does to non-Mormons
> because Mormons believe in three heavens with very few people going to
> hell, that needs to be explained for proper communication to occur.
Blaine: I appreciate your intervention in
helping to clarify the problem--it does seem to be one of communicatiion.
I have posted a post which covers my viewpoint on the problem, hopefully it will
help.
> Likewise, if "like God" means becoming God instead of becoming more like
> God in moral character, then that also should be explained.
I wrote a post on this before,
some time ago. We only believe we will be like God--not God himself. If we
believed we could become God, it would put us in the position of
being usurpers, as was Satan. (Unfortunately,
this has not been what Protestants have been led to believe--there seem to be
organized efforts to lead people to believe otherwise--there is even a movie out
there somewhere called the Godmakers, which I understand is an attempt to
represent what we believe in a very negative light--drawing conclusions from
statements made by authorities that are not fully
justified.) We believe, in other
words, we will ALWAYS be subordinate to God and to His Son, and to the Holy
Ghost (I think in my previous post, I even
used that word--subordinate.)
> So the question to you and DaveH is, do you knowingly use terms that you
> know mislead others, or are you so engrossed within Mormonism that you
> don't really think about how others on this list might be
> misunderstanding you?
Blaine: There might be a few words
which have more than one meaning for us, such as Gentile, but on the whole most
of our words mean about the same as with anyone of any other
religion. Basically, we use the term 'God" to refer to the Father,
the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are one God to us, as their
purpose is the same. But it needs to be clarified that we believe the
Father and the Son have physical bodies, literally. The Holy
Ghost is a personage of spirit. As I understand Protestant beliefs,
God is a spirit--not a person with flesh and bones. So, there does seem to be a difference in belief.
"God" can also refer to what we hope to
become in our own right if we prove faithful, keeping in mind however, that we
will remain throughout all eternity a subordinate of our present God as I have
defined Him above.
In a
little-used sense, "a god" could refer to someone in a position
of spiritual power and influence, such as Moses--since he had a great deal of
God's delegated authority and was the chief decision maker over the Children of
Israel, so was like a god to them. I don't think we ever refer
to Joseph Smith in that way, but I supppose he could be thought of as being a
god in the same spiritual sense as Moses was. A big
misunderstanding seems to come from the Godmakers presentation, which
leads people to believe we intend to supplant God. I have no respect for
this kind of thing, and I hope TT'rs will realize it is just another effort to
discredit Mormonism and take advantage of ignorance, and fear of that which is
unfamiliar.
The
subject of Hell is apparently another point of contention. Most
Protestants seem to believe the fires of hell are literal, whereas we believe
them to be more or less symbolic what Jesus Christ suffered when he bled at
every pore in Gethsemane,and died on the cross. That will
happen to unrepentant sinners when they are finally brought
before the bar of God for judgement. We believe Hell is an internal
condition, not necessarily an external condition or place, although there may be
a place reserved for those suffering the "flames" of Hell. Certainly the
parable of the begger being in the arms of Abraham and the rich
man not being able to get there because of a great gulf separating them
would suggest there is an actual place, but we believe the burning is
within. As might be noted, the rich man did ask for water to quench the
burning within himself. Nothing was said of any literal flames
outside the body.
The term "Heaven" is another point of contention.
This may be where the accusations of using double-talk mostly
originated. (:>) This contention is for the most part what I
had in mind in my other post, also, wherein I discussed the principle of eternal
progression, and of going from grace to grace as we progress through various
levels of knowledge and understanding.
Rather than trying
to state what Protestants believe regarding heaven, I will just try to describe
what Mormons Believe. You can the contrast the two, from your own
background.
Mormons believe, first of
all, that as soon as a person dies, their spirit leaves the body and returns to
God, and from there is assigned either a place of rest and beauty (paradise), or
a place called Spirit Prison, where Satan has strong influence and power.
This is not Hell, but may have some characteristics of Hell. In both
places, they await the resurrection.
Mormons believe in two resurrections--the resurrection of the just, and the
resurrection of the unjust. (See John 5:28-29) The first resurrection began with Jesus,
and many of those who were righteous but who had died prior to his time were
resurrected then. This would include Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses,
Nephi, etc, on down to John the Baptist, but would not include those who were
unrepentant and who are reserved in chains in the grasp of Satan, in his Spirit
Prison. An example of these would be those who died in the flood.
Most
who lived after Jesus' time have not been resurrected, but will be when he
comes again, at which time people will receive their just rewards according to
their acts while in the flesh. All will be resurrected in the due time of
the Lord. But here is the clincher: They will receive differential
rewards and be assigned to different kingdoms, according to their
righteousness. I could go on from here, but in a revelation given to the
Prophet Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon on February 16, 1832, while they were
studying the Bible, they saw a vision, in which it was
revealed to them that there were three Kingdoms of Glory--the Celestial (likened
to the glory of the sun), the Terrestrial (liked to the glory of the moon), and
the Telestial (likened to the glory of the stars).
In the revelation, found
in the Doctrine and Covenants, Secion 76, much about each of these Kingdoms
was revealed, and the qualifications for each. The revelation takes
up several pages, so I won't try to delineate its contents here. It is on
the internet.
By the way, the
belief that only Mormons will inherit the highest kingdom is not
necessarily true. One must have lived a righteous life, repented of
sins and consciously seek to live God's commandments, or hope of coming
forth in the resurrection to this highest degree of glory is lost.
However, I willl be straightforward, to enter this Kingdom,
one must eventually, either in this life or the next, accept the true
authority of Jesus Christ as it has been given to man in these latter days
through the Prophet Joseph Smith, or as it was given at other times prior to
Joseph Smith, and prepare oneself according to the prescribed covenants and
ordinances. Those who die in ignorance of these covenants and
ordinances will be provided for by work for the dead done in latter-day temples
by the living. Over a hundred such temples are now in operation throughout
the world. The latest is a new one recently completed in Ghana,
Africa.
The second highest
kingdom, also a place of great glory and beauty, is available to those who live
justly among their fellows, and merit the resurrection of the just, but who were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus
Christ. Those who inherit this Terrestrial
kingdom will not suffer the vengeance of
eternal fire (hell) before they are resurrected. (It is called eternal
fire because it is God's fire, or God's punishment, and God is
eternal.)
Those who have committed
serious sins such as murder, adultry, patronizing whores, and
have persisted in their sins, will eventually be resurrected in the resurrection
of the unjust, to inherit the Telestial degree of glory in
the Telestial Kingdom, where each
inherits inherits a slightly different degree of glory, just as
the stars also differ in brightness and glory. But first they
must suffer the punishments of God--they must suffer even as
Jesus Christ suffered in Gethsemane and on the cross, where restitution
for the sins of the world was accomplished. Because of his
restitution on the cross, they get an automatic resurrection, but do not gain
entrance into either of the higher two kingdoms. As it says in the revelation, where God and his Christ dwell, they
cannot come, worlds without end.
There is actually a fourth
type of person, who will inherit none of the above three kingdoms. These
are those who committed sin against the Holy Ghost, for which there is no
forgiveness either in this world or the next. They are resurrected,
but not to a kingdom of any glory. They continue to abide with Satan and
his angels in eternity, but in the flesh, and therefore have power over Satan to
some degree, where their guilt never dies. These are those who cannot be
purified, either by punishments or otherwise. Judas Iscariot is thought to
be one of these persons, as the ultimate sin against the Holy Ghost is
defined as being the shedding of innocent blood or consent to such after the
murderer has gained a full knowledge of the powers of heaven. These are
almost always apostates from the truth.
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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