[TruthTalk] Original sin

[jandgtaylor1]

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> If the blood of a lowly lamb can atone for sin,  how much more can the blood of a righteous man  born of the seed of Adam atone for sin.   Judy wrote: To begin with - there are no righteous men born of the seed of Adam (Romans 3:10) and secondly the blood of lowly lambs, bulls and goats was only a temporary measure which never actually did atone for sin - it was symbolic in that it covered the sin of Israel the nation for one year and then they had to do it all over again. They were looking forward to the promised seed just as we look back to Him.   DavidM: The blood of lambs, while temporary, most certainly did atone for sin. Atonement means covering, so you contradict yourself when you say that it never did atone for sin - it only covered the sin.    Judy: In my dictionary the word atone means "to make amends for" or "reparation made for an injury, wrong, or sin".   DavidM: (snipped Leviticus 4:32-35)   Judy: OK point made David, I see the words "make atonement for" are there but we are not living in Leviticus - the ritual law was nailed to the cross.   We are now living in a new covenant with better promises and our new covenant tells us that where "remission" of these (sins and iniquities) is, there is no more offering for sin (see Hebrews 10:17-18); to remit is to cancel pardon, forgive. So the blood of Jesus does what the blood of lambs, bulls, and goats could never do.   DavidM wrote: On the other hand, if Jesus did not have the blood of Adam coursing through his veins, he would have been disqualified from being an  eternal sacrifice for our sin.   Judy wrote: What basis in fact do you have for the above statement?   DavidM: This is the conclusion I have come to from years of studying why God had to be clothed with flesh.  Why did Christ become flesh?  Jesus had to come in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh.    Judy: No he didn't.  God had already condemned sin in the flesh ie those who would not believe were condemned already (John 3:18)    DavidM: There also are legal reasons for it.  The Bible teaches that Satan is the god of this world, and he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of this world if he would worship him.  How did Satan get all this?    Judy: Adam gave it to him...   DavidM: By deception and stealing.    Judy: No, the woman was deceived. Adam knew what he was doing, he made a rational choice.   DavidM: God had the power to take it all away from him by force.  Why become flesh?  Why suffer?  Why humble himself per Philippians 2?   Judy: Because for any kind of redemption that was to be permanent there had to be a spotless and blameless sacrifice and noone but He was qualified.  Lambs, bulls, and goats were fallen along with the rest of the creation so that kind of covering was temporary at best.    DavidM: The answer comes to us when we consider the legal aspects of ownership and authority.  Jesus had to become a man to rightful redeem man.    Judy: Jesus became flesh and yes he was called the son of man but he was not of the same genealogy as Adam ie: "But He whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises and without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better." (Hebrews 7:6,7).   DavidM: If you deny that Jesus Christ became flesh of the seed of Adam, Abraham, and David, you have a whole lot of explaining to do about why become a man at all which was subject to the pain and misery that Jesus experienced. Such was unnecessary if his true humanity was unnecessary.   Judy: I do deny that Jesus Christ was of the same genetical seed as Adam, Abraham, and David.  Scripture reveals that he is the King of Salem Melchizidec to whom Abraham gave a tithe. Hebrews 7:16 tells us he as our Great High Priest is not made after the law of a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life."   Judy wrote: The blood of Adam is a contaminant and this is why we are in need of redemption.   DavidM: On what basis in fact do you make this claim?    Judy: On the basis that the life of the flesh is in the blood and when Adam chose the lie over the truth his whole being became defiled. This is why he tried to cover himself and he hid from God.   DavidM: Does the blood of humans prevent the Holy Ghost from indwelling us?    Judy: When a person repents, turns from their sin and begins to walk in obedience to Christ the blood of Jesus cleanses his conscience from dead works so that he may serve the living God and scripture teaches that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Jesus (Acts 5:32)   DavidM: Do you imagine some physical change in our blood that happens upon conversion?   Judy: I try not to "imagine" things because I want to walk in reality rather than fantasy... and no, our blood stays the same, the change in us is spiritual.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45)   Judy wrote: You did not answer my question re the 'virgin birth' DavidM. Why the need for a virgin birth if your theory is correct?   DavidM: I did answer your question.  There is absolutely no need for the virgin birth, other than it serving as a prophetic sign, like the shadow of the sun dial moving back 10 degrees.   Judy: Do you really think God is as capricious as that? He would go so far as to put Mary in danger of being stoned and losing her fiance as well as her reputation - for what??  The sun stopped for a reason - so that they could continue the battle.  I don't believe God does anything for no reason.  The virgin birth was more necessary than any of us know.    DavidM wrote: If Jesus had come through some other way, he would have been a thief and a robber.  However, Jesus came through the door, that is to say, his flesh.   Judy wrote: The door into the sheepfold is Jesus Himself, (you have added the word flesh).   DavidM: Jesus is our door, but human flesh was the door by which Jesus came into the sheepfold to lead and guide us and redeem mankind.   Judy: I think you have the sheepfold mixed up with Jesus flesh opening the way into the Holy of Holies, that is, inside the veil. (Hebrews 10:19,20). But Jesus in essence is NOT a flesh body (and no I am not an anti-Christ denying that he ever came in the flesh).   I was referring to the parable where Jesus said "I am the door and any who try to get to heaven some other way are thieves and robbers" which appears to be the scripture you were using and that scripture says nothing about his flesh.   Grace and Peace, judy