[TruthTalk] Last words on Jesus had the same sinful flesh we have.

[Judy Taylor]

From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy, it's not that I'm opposed to or even unaware of the format of this forum. I know it is here so that people can have some give and take. But Judy, I'm not able to do that with you. It's not because I'm not willing to give; it's because you're not willing to give. I'll quickly answer your questions, but I will not continue to argue with you.   JT: If you are arguing then that's you Bill. I am discussing issues and giving you scriptural grounds for what I believe.   BT: Again, yours is a possible explanation. In giving your explanation you are doing theology and that is quite appropriate, even necessary. But remember that it is theology that you are doing (you are thinking really hard about God, if you want a working definition). You need to remember this because I would like to do theology also. Mine is a possible explanation as well.   JT: No actually I don't think really hard about God ever. I come to His Word to learn and receive spiritual understanding by way of His Spirit. I don't believe these issues can be grasped mentally, especially not with an unrenewed mind.   BT: It would be nice to learn to do this in a way that let's others do theology also. In that way, maybe we can come to something that is truly to our Lord's glory. Until then, not much good can come out of our arguing back and forth.   JT: Well I guess we can all just "do theology" and we can all have our own truth same as the New Agers do.   I'll be BT: Question: How can a child be born spiritually alive and at the same time be born an heir of Adam, with his sin or fallen nature? I was taught since Sunday School that Adam's sin brought spiritual death to not only himself but all of his descendants.   JT: Well that's scriptural "By one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and death passed upon all men for all have sinned (Romans 5:12).   BT: When I read this passage do not see 5:12 as the end-all, I see it as what may have introduced the end, were it not for the life-work of the new man, Jesus Christ: 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Notice the kinsmen language here. You have the one and the all; you have the one and the many. But the Second one is always greater than the first, thus restoring the all and the many of the first. In this scenario, no one drops out, so to speak, but everything that is included in the first Adam is taken up and made righteous in the Second.   JT: It's going to take more than the "kinsmen language" you seem to find in Romans 5 to be part of the Kingdom of God Bill.  Jesus himself said that his mother and brothers (kinsmen) are those who DO the will of the Father so this complicates things and adds a new dimension..   WT: A Possible Answer (and Vince, this is to you too): If we take into account the go'el (kinsmen redeemer) aspect of Christ's atoning work (see my earlier post for the go'el ), we can then begin to understand how it is that the Second Adam is truly greater than the first. Why did it take THE go'el to redeem humanity? because the only other kinsmen that we all have in common besides the go'el, is Adam. We have his blood running through our veins. That blood had to be destroyed and recreated, if we were to stand a chance against the tyrants. But the go'el is not only the go'el, he is also pedah. He defeats the tyrants in the flesh, his own flesh, and thereby defeats them in humanity's flesh.   JT: The go'el (as you like to call him) did not come to redeem your flesh Wm. The first Adam was flesh and blood; the second Adam is a life-giving spirit. The Kingdom he offers is a spiritual one.  You must be born again; that is, born of the Spirit.  He took upon himself a body of flesh and was made LIKE us ONLY so that he could become the sacrifice for our sin.  Now HE is the covenant.   BT: An equally valid way of translating pneuma (spirit) is with breath or wind. The context determines the use. In Gen 1 God breathed into Adam the breath of life. Adam was then able to pass that "breath" on to others made of his flesh (notice that God did not have to do the same with the woman). But then Adam sinned. He was no longer the giver of life, he was the giver of death. Life, if there were to be any, would have to come from somewhere else; hence the promise/blessing given to Woman -- through her would come the justification of life (note the Pauline language I'm using). We know that Adam got the message here because immediately after the "curse" he changed Woman's name to Eve, which, as Bob pointed out, means "giver of life."Therefore want the first Adam had lost and could not do because of sin, the Second Adam became -- and that is, a life-giving breath.   JT: You are calling someone who procreates a "giver of life?" God created Eve do you believe Adam breathed the breath of life into her?   WT: In this way, humanity is included in the Incarnation. Christ is David, so to speak (although on a much smaller scale), standing before Goliath and representing all of the Israelites in his battle. When David was victorious, all Israel shared in his victory. How is that? Because these people understood representation. Even though David was from the line of Judah and others were from the line of the other brothers, he could represent them all because he was go'el for them, through their common heritage in Abraham. What David defeated on a small, external scale, that being Goliath, Christ defeated on a grand, internal scale --sin, death, the devil, the world (See Col. 1 for the scope of Christ's victory and a context whereby now to grasp it).   JT: So are you about "positional truth" William?    BT: I'm not sure what you are asking here, so if I go off in the wrong direction, steer me back: I am about ontological truth. I believe our existence, the really real me, is hidden in Christ, waiting to be revealed on the last day. That is when we will get our new names, our eyes will be opened, we will know God the way we are known by him, etc., etc.   JT: Positional truth has the mindset that since we were all in Adam and he is a representative man that we were all in Christ on the cross - "Were you there when they crucified my Lord" etc. But the concept is faulty. It came out of the Keswick Conventions in the UK in the 1900's.   WT: It is neither hyperbole nor is it error to say that we are included in Christ in the Incarnation. Indeed that is where our adoption takes place (see Eph. 1). Now if we refuse to believe in Christ, what do we lose? not our adoption, but our inheritance, which of course includes everlasting participation in the eternal relationship into which we were adopted, the relationship between the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit: This is hell.    JT: No faith, no adoption or inheritance and there is an obedience that comes by faith. I don't see you talking about much that is practical Bill. You just have these great sweeping ideas which do not make sense. You don't have the right to call something what God has not called it. Jesus was born under the law and came first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So far as I'm aware you and I are not included.  Are you Jewish? He came to his own and after they had refused him the gentiles were included.  Also hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels, it is not a state of being.   BT: Can hell be both a place and a state of being, held together still by Christ's refusal to stop loving us?   JT: He loved us enough to die for us and he lives in heaven to make intercession for us.  However, we have a part to play in our own redemption and without our cooperation his hands are tied.   WT: On the other hand, when we place our faith in Jesus Christ, what do we receive, if not adoption? We receive the Holy Spirit, who guarantees our inheritance (eternal life among other things. See again Eph 1 [verse 13 specifically], along with other passages which speak of the work of the Spirit).   JT: He doesn't give the Holy Spirit to people with faith in some weird theological construct Bill.  He gives the Holy Spirit to those who OBEY him. (Acts 5:32)   WT: The Holy Spirit then is Christ in us, the hope of glory, the hope of everlasting fellowship with the Father and the Son. Why are children born spiritually alive when Adam can only give them death? Because the work of the first Adam was destroyed in the work of the Second Adam (see Rom. 5, e.g., and I Cor. 15). When Christ died, all died. When he rose again victorious, he brought with him all who had died in his death.   JT: If the above is so then why did Paul say he "died daily" and why did he teach that we should "reckon" ourselves dead to the flesh and alive to the Spirit.  Walking after the Spirit does not just happen without our cooperation; we must consciously resist the flesh and choose to renew our minds in God's Word as per Romans 12:2.   WT: Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer (II Cor. 5:17).   JT: That's what Paul wrote but you will have a difficult time living that today since most people who say they are Christian are walking after the flesh. Are you trying to say that everyone in this world rose with Christ and every baby born into this world is now risen with Christ Bill? \   BT: Yes, but not so fast. I am saying that when Christ died he changed the nature of death for everyone. That's why no one will be able to just die and get away from it all. They don't get to turn to dust any longer. Christ changed all of that. There is resurrection now. That ressurection is in Christ. If someone refuses him unto death, then perhaps their resurrection will be to the exclusion of Christ to that place to which you refer. But their ontological status is in him and his resurrection nonetheless.     JT: There was always resurrection for everyone, some are resurrection to life and some to death, that didn't change. Remember Lazarus and the Rich Man?  I wouldn't put all my eggs in this "ontological" basket if I were you. Do you believe that this happens by osmosis?   BT: No, I believe it happens by recapitulation -- Christ's gathering together of all things in him. Not osmosis-illy but ontologically.   JT: My 98yr old mother does not know the Lord, are you saying she will go to heaven anyway even though she understands none of it?   BT: I'm saying that the one who will judge her is already her Savior and her Lord. I am saying that he died for all of her, including her ignorance. I am saying that he loves her and that he forgives her. These things I am confident about. Will he send her to hell for her unbelief? I won't touch that, but I am really glad that he gets to be her judge.   JT: Then why would God say "My people perish for lack of knowledge?" This is the same God "Who changes not" and Jesus who scripture teaches us is the same "Yesterday, today, and forever"   Do I believe the scriptures or do I embrace universalism - oophs! ontology.   Judyt