----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 11:15
AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Last words on Jesus
had the same sinful flesh we have.
Question: How can a child be born spiritually
alive and at the same time be born an heir of Adam, with his sin or fallen
nature? I was taught since Sunday School that Adam's sin brought spiritual
death to not only himself but all of his descendants.
JT: Well that's scriptural "By one man sin
entered into the world and death by sin and death passed upon all men for all
have sinned (Romans 5:12).
BT: When I read this passage do
not see 5:12 as the end-all, I see it as what may have introduced the end,
were it not for the life-work of the new man, Jesus Christ:
5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to
all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous
act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of
life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made
sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made
righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.
But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign
through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Notice the kinsmen language here. You have the one and
the all; you have the one and the many. But the
Second one is always greater than the first, thus restoring the all
and the many of the first. In this scenario, no one drops out, so to speak,
but everything that is included in the first Adam is taken up and made
righteous in the Second.
WT: A Possible Answer (and Vince, this is
to you too): If we take into account the go'el (kinsmen redeemer)
aspect of Christ's atoning work (see my earlier post for the go'el ),
we can then begin to understand how it is that the Second Adam is truly
greater than the first. Why did it take THE go'el to redeem
humanity? because the only other kinsmen that we all have in
common besides the go'el, is Adam. We have his blood
running through our veins. That blood had to be destroyed and recreated, if we
were to stand a chance against the tyrants. But the go'el is not only
the go'el, he is also pedah. He defeats the tyrants in the
flesh, his own flesh, and thereby defeats them in humanity's flesh.
JT: The go'el did not come to redeem your flesh
Wm. Only the first Adam was flesh and blood; the second Adam is a life-giving
spirit. The Kingdom he offers is a spiritual one. You must be born
again; that is, born of the Spirit.
BT: An equally valid way of
translating pneuma (spirit) is with breath or wind. The context
determines the use. In Gen 1 God breathed into Adam the breath of life.
Adam was then able to pass that "breath" on to others made of his flesh
(notice that God did not have to do the same with the woman). But
then Adam sinned. He was no longer the giver of life, he was the giver of
death. Life, if there were to be any, would have to come from somewhere else;
hence the promise/blessing given to Woman -- through her would come the
justification of life (note the Pauline language I'm using). We know that Adam
got the message here because immediately after the "curse" he changed Woman's
name to Eve, which, as Bob pointed out, means "giver of life."
Therefore want the first Adam had lost and could
not do because of sin, the Second Adam became -- and that is, a
life-giving breath.
WT: In this way, humanity is included in the
Incarnation. Christ is David, so to speak (although on a much smaller
scale), standing before Goliath and representing all of the Israelites
in his battle. When David was victorious, all Israel shared in his
victory. How is that? Because these people understood representation. Even
though David was from the line of Judah and others were from the line of the
other brothers, he could represent them all because he was go'el for
them, through their common heritage in Abraham. What David defeated on a
small, external scale, that being Goliath, Christ defeated on a
grand, internal scale --sin, death, the devil, the world (See Col. 1
for the scope of Christ's victory and a context whereby now to grasp
it).
JT: So are you about "positional
truth" William?
BT: I'm not sure what you are
asking here, so if I go off in the wrong direction, steer me back: I am
about ontological truth. I believe our existence, the really real me, is
hidden in Christ, waiting to be revealed on the last day. That is when we
will get our new names, our eyes will be opened, we will know God the way we
are known by him, etc., etc.
WT: It is neither hyperbole nor is it error to
say that we are included in Christ in the Incarnation. Indeed that is where
our adoption takes place (see Eph. 1). Now if we refuse to believe in Christ,
what do we lose? not our adoption, but our inheritance, which of course
includes everlasting participation in the eternal relationship into which we
were adopted, the relationship between the Father and the Son in the Holy
Spirit: This is hell.
JT: No faith, no adoption or inheritance. Also
hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels, it is not a state of
being.
BT: Can hell be both a place and
a state of being, held together still by Christ's refusal to stop loving
us?
WT: On the other
hand, when we place our faith in Jesus Christ, what do we receive, if not
adoption? We receive the Holy Spirit, who guarantees our inheritance (eternal
life among other things. See again Eph 1 [verse 13 specifically], along
with other passages which speak of the work of the Spirit). The Holy Spirit
then is Christ in us, the hope of glory, the hope of everlasting fellowship
with the Father and the Son. Why are children
born spiritually alive when Adam can only give them death? Because the work of
the first Adam was destroyed in the work of the Second Adam (see Rom. 5, e.g.,
and I Cor. 15). When Christ died, all died. When he rose again victorious, he
brought with him all who had died in his death. Therefore, from now on,
we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ
according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer (II Cor. 5:17).
JT: Are you saying that everyone in this
world rose with Christ and every baby born into this world is now risen
with Christ Bill?
BT: Yes, but not so fast. I am
saying that when Christ died he changed the nature of death for everyone.
That's why no one will be able to just die and get away from it all. They
don't get to turn to dust any longer. Christ changed all of that. There is
resurrection now. That ressurection is in Christ. If someone refuses him unto
death, then perhaps their resurrection will be to the exclusion of Christ
to that place to which you refer. But their ontological status is in him and
his resurrection nonetheless.
JT: Do you believe that this happens by
osmosis?
BT: No, I believe it happens by
recapitulation -- Christ's gathering together of all things in him. Not
osmosis-illy but ontologically.
My 98yr old mother does not know the Lord, are
you saying she will go to heaven anyway even though she understands none of
this?
BT: I'm saying that the one who
will judge her is already her Savior and her Lord. I am saying that he died
for all of her, including her ignorance. I am saying that he loves her and
that he forgives her. These things I am confident about. Will he send her to
hell for her unbelief? I won't touch that, but I am really glad that he gets
to be her judge.
Judyt
