----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 05, 2004 03:23
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of
Christ
Judy Taylor wrote:
Another thing that bothers me is why some appear to
be so hung up on hell and the lake of fire
daveh: I'm hung up on it because I find the popular Christian
perception to be very interesting. To me it is obviously
symbolic, but to most Christians it seems to be a literal lake of
fire. Yet (to me) it seems so illogical.....That a loving God would
punitively punish people who never had the chance to accept/believe Jesus by
physically torturing them forever. Seems pretty harsh.....even for the
wrath of God, does it not! Contrast that to the Lord's story of the
prodigal son.....do you find both teachings to be at odds?
judyt: Why would you call this "obviously" symbolic
Dave.
DAVEH: I thought the symbolic connection
between the lake of fire and the garbage pit near Jerusalem that was on
fire was pretty well accepted by most Christians. From the web site http://www.ovrlnd.com/Teaching/hell.html..............
+++++++++++
IV The 10 descriptions of Hell are symbolic not
literal
A. Physical garbage dump outside of
Jerusalem
B. 4 Different figures of fire: (including
gehenna)
1. Fire of Gehenna
2. furnace of fire
3. rain
storm of fire and brimstone
4. lake of fire and brimstone
huge
furnace with lake of fire inside, raining fire located in valley of hinnon
in Jerusalem?
Or 4 different figures to depict the spiritual
counterpart
C. Exile and banishment
D. Eternal night
E. A bottomless pit (Hades)
F. Scourged, while shacked in a
prison
G. Worse than drowned in sea with millstone hung
around neck: Mt 18:6
Conclusion: Not A Pretty Place
God appealed to all our five senses to describe
hell as a bad place:
1. Touch: pain from burning fire
2. Taste:
dry mouth, extreme thirst, blood from gnashing teeth
3. Smell: rotting
garbage-gehenna; rotten eggs-brimstone
4. Sight: smoke-fire;
corruption-gehenna or black darkness
5. Sound: moaning, weeping, crying,
screaming
+++++++++++
I don't find much symbolism in the
parable
DAVEH: Do you understand parable to be a story that conveys a concept while in
itself may not have actually happened?......
of Lazarus and the rich man who found
himself in Hades. Lazarus has a name which indicates personhood. This
parable is every bit as valid as the prodigal
son.
DAVEH: http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=parable&x=0&y=0
Both were taught by Jesus. I
don't His find truth to be at odds at all. God is loving but he is
also holy and perfectly just. Noone will spend an eternity in torment who
has not personally chosen this end.
daveh: From what I've learned previously in TT, anybody who
dies without believing in Jesus is condemned to the lake of fire. (I
assume you agree???) Yet there are literally billions who have lived
and died without even hearing the name of Jesus, let alone hearing the
gospel. So......if they (through no fault of their own) don't believe
in Jesus and end up being eternally tortured in the lake of fire......what
commentary does that speak of a loving God? Or......do you believe
that they will be given the chance to believe in Jesus after their
death? I think virtually all I've chatted with about this deny this
possibility though.
judyt: It is appointed unto men once to die and
after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27); the Church has been given the great
commission (see Matthew 28:19,20). Do you personally know of someone who has
not yet heard of Jesus?
DAVEH: My personal
world is immersed in Jesus. However, I can think of many instances of
people(s) who could/would not have heard of him.
How many have heard and rejected the
truth?
DAVEH: The problem with that is it is
questionable as to how many actually heard the truth. If you and I
knocked up a non Christians door in a proselytizing effort, and you first
taught him what you know as the gospel, and then I taught him my perspective
of the gospel.......and then he chose to believe mine---you would assume rejected the truth, while I would assume just the
opposite. So it seems that there are many versions of the truth right here in TT. Imagine a non Christian
viewing the gospel being preached by underwear waving protesters. Would
they run to embrace that truth, or would they run
from it. And if they did find that form of truth to be repulsive, do you think God is going to chuck
them into the lake of fire for not accepting such a negative presentation of
the gospel?
It would have been this way (hell) for the prodigal
son if he had not chosen to repent in the pigpen and return to his
Father's house. Note, the Father did not chase him into the pig pen and beg
him to return; he was responsible for his own life
choices. The scriptures teach that it
is the "wrath of God" we are to be saved from and when we are saved
from this we will not ever have to be concerned about the lake of
fire.
DAVEH: Do you suppose the wrath of God might possibly refer punishments of
mortality, rather than punishments that extend beyond the grave? I've
not done a study of it, but it sure seems to me that God has shown his wrath
to mortals when they happen to be engaged in efforts to thwart the
gospel. One of these days (if I ever find the time), I'll have to
see what relation there is between the wrath of God
and hell. Perhaps you already know, and can quote some passages that
connect the two?
daveh: Without some negative result, what motivation would
Christians have to seek the truth? Jesus told us the truth would set
us free. Free from what, if misconceptive (can't think of the proper
word for that one!) Christians can be saved?
judyt: Free from the lie that damns
the soul and incurs the wrath of
God.
DAVEH: Hmmmmmm.....as DavidM
suggested, it isn't misperceptions that damns
the soul, but rather sin. But if I remember correctly, you
may disagree with him on that.
We are either slaves of sin or we are
slaves of righteousness, we choose one or the other.
daveh: Which brings back the question: Is one damned
from sin or misconception? (Or.......both?)
judyt: What is sin?
daveh: That which separates us from God.....?
judyt: His word says that all unrighteousness is
sin and 1 John 3:4 teaches us that sin is transgression of the
law.
What is misconception?
daveh: That which separates us
from truth......?
judyt: In the parable of the sower, the sower sows
the Word (truth) and the evil one sows his words (the lie)
When truth is conceived in the heart it brings
forth life. When we conceive lies the opposite is true and this would be a
misconception wouldn't it? In Isaiah 59:13 the prophet speaks of
conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. Where does
the responsibility lie?
daveh: If we keep the commandments, we shall know the
truth....
judyt: What chapter and verse is
this?
DAVEH: It is my summation of a couple
passages......Jn 8:31-32
There is none so blind as he who
will not see... Stiff necked, stubborn, rebellion, is what damns the soul.
To obey is better than sacrifice.
daveh: Hmmmmmmm......surely you aren't suggesting salvation
by obedience.....! :-)
judyt: I don't believe there is any formula for
salvation Daveh but look at the ones who have made it and are waiting in
Hebrews 11. They are all examples of the obedience that comes through
faith.
judyt
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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