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Lance I never assume that anyone knows anything on the
internet and if the roles are reversed I never mind
when people remind me of truth even if I know it
already. As for straw and herring, if Bill wasn't saying that
the writings of the Church Fathers are the answer - why
did he go to the trouble of posting them followed by
a scripture reference about not using carnal
weapons. We use spiritual weapons to pull down spiritual
strongholds which is what the apostle is writing
about. If I am mistaken what IYO is Bill talking about?
Judyt:'Twas John's question, right? I note your
answer to JOHN: "the plan is already in place and is being carried out as we
write."
Judy, do you have on hand a cupboard full of
'herring & straw"? 'Not surprisingly' you know that John knows what you said
herein. Unless I truly missed it (please correct me, John) he's asking about
'human strategy'. Just to help: even though "my God will supply are your
needs" yet do I shop for groceries regularly. The fromer does not nullify the need for the latter. But, not
surprisingly, you already know that.
Hey Lance:
When you return from OZ we can begin some rational
dialogue. The plan is already in place
and is being carried out as we write and there is a
God in heaven who oversees the plans of men. For those who believe they
know better or could do better... Oh well!!
Judyt:Bill, not surprisingly, isn't suggesting
the counsel of the (RCC) Church Fathers over the WOG in the NT. Not
surprisingly, you already knew that. (the man was straw and, the herring
was red). Do you, indeed does anyone,
have an answer to John's very important question?:"a plan for dealing with
those who are bent on our physical harm and intend to accomplish this in the
very near future"
Hi John:
Not surprisingly I don't agree with Bill on this
issue. Why seek counsel from the RC Church Fathers when we have the
wisdom of God in the New Testament itself? It is important to have the
mind of God in Christ about these issues. The scriptures teach that at the
Second Coming Jesus will judge the world in righteousness after which
He will rule the earth with a rod of iron - In the meantime His followers
are to be in the process of being sanctified, that is, dealing with
their own issues (of the heart) in being conformed to His image. I
don't see any mandate for the merging of Church and State in scripture until
Jesus' return. Constantine had no genuine conversion before
he publicly merged Church and State in Rome (345AD) after his supposed
epiphany. >From all accounts his behavior did not change, he
continued to have people murdered and was not baptized until he
was on his deathbed. Constantine is responsible for merging paganism
and public religion into the system that morphed into today's
RCC.
The Lord speaks to us through the apostle Paul who
writes that God gives government the authority to weild the sword which
leaves the Church free to love (Romans 13:4-6) and so we are to pray for
them and support them in this. The confusion happens when we try to confuse
the two. The RCC is more political than spiritual and IMO looks
nothing at all like the "image of Christ" and too many times it is the
Pope muddying the water. judyt
John's response
> What bothers me in this reply is that I honestly do not see a plan for dealing with those who are
bent on our physical harm and intend to accomplish this in the very near
future. John
Regarding the topic of
fighting the war on terrorism, Lance wrote > On a
personal (community) level we need to be 'living' this truth we
'talk'.
John, the following quotes are from the Second
century. I thought them relevant to your comment.
"For the Christians are distinguished from
other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they
observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, ... nor lead a life
which is marked out by any singularity. ... But, inhabiting Greek as well as
barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and
following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the
rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and
confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but
simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and
yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them
as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of
strangers. They marry, as do all; they beget children; but they do not
needlessly cast of fetuses [destroy their offspring]. They have a common
table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live
after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of
heaven. They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the
laws by their lives. ... They are poor, yet make many rich; they
are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonored,
and yet in their very dishonor are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and
yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and repay
the insult with honor; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When
punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the
Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate
them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.
...
Do
you not see them exposed to wild beasts, that they may be persuaded to deny
their Lord, and yet are not overcome? Do you not see that the more of them
are punished, the greater becomes the number of the rest? This does not seem
to be the work of man: this is the power of God; these are evidences of His
manifestation."
--
Mathetes
"But the Christians show kindness to those near them; and whenever they are
judges, they judge uprightly; ... they do good to their enemies; ... if one
of them have bondsmen and bondswomen or children, through love towards them
they persuade them to become Christians, and when they have done so, they
call them brethren without distinction. They do not worship strange gods,
and they go their way in all modesty and cheerfulness. Falsehood is not
found among them; and they love one another. ... And he, who has, gives to
him who has not, without boasting. And when they see a stranger, they take
him in to their own homes and rejoice over him as a very brother. ... And if
they hear that one of their number is imprisoned or afflicted on account of
the name of their Messiah, all of them anxiously minister to his necessity.
... And if there is any among them that is poor and needy, and they have no
spare food, they fast two or three days in order to supply to the needy
their lack of food. ...
Such, O King, is their manner of life. ... And verily, this is a new people,
and there is something divine in the midst of them."
--
Aristides
"We know many among ourselves who
have given themselves up to bonds, in order that they might ransom others.
Many too have surrendered themselves to slavery, that with the price which
they received for themselves, they might provide food for
others."
--
Clement of Rome
"But among Christians you will find
ignorant persons and artisans, and old women who, though they are unable in
words to prove the benefit of their doctrine, yet by their deeds exhibit the
benefit arising from their persuasion of its truth: they do not rehearse
speeches, but exhibit good works; when struck, they do not strike again;
when robbed, they do not go to law; they give of those who ask of them, and
love their neighbor as themselves."
--Athenagoras.
It may not look like a plan,
John, but it is the life we are called to live. In the Fourth
century Rome wearied of its war against Christianity -- and promptly
joined it. Not long after that, Christians were acting like Romans, a truth
born out many times over the following centuries. I know the
Jihadists hate us, but I am not convinced it's because of our Faith. If
we are to win this war, my friend, it will not be with M1s and
Daisy-cutters. Islam will have to go the way of Rome. I pray we will not make the same mistake twice.
"For though we live
in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons
we fight with are not the weapons of the world. ..."
-- Paul
Blessings,
Bill
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