Hi John:
Not surprisingly I don't agree with Bill on
this issue. Why seek counsel from the RC Church Fathers when we
have the wisdom of God in the New Testament itself? It is
important to have the mind of God in Christ about these issues. The
scriptures teach that at the Second Coming Jesus will judge the
world in righteousness after which He will rule the earth with a rod of
iron - In the meantime His followers are to be in the process of
being sanctified, that is, dealing with their own issues (of the heart)
in being conformed to His image. I don't see any mandate for the
merging of Church and State in scripture until Jesus' return.
Constantine had no genuine conversion before he publicly
merged Church and State in Rome (345AD) after his supposed
epiphany. >From all accounts his behavior did not change, he
continued to have people murdered and was not baptized until
he was on his deathbed. Constantine is responsible for
merging paganism and public religion into the system that morphed
into today's RCC.
The Lord speaks to us through the apostle Paul
who writes that God gives government the authority to weild the sword
which leaves the Church free to love (Romans 13:4-6) and so we are to
pray for them and support them in this. The confusion happens when we
try to confuse the two. The RCC is more political than spiritual
and IMO looks nothing at all like the "image of Christ" and too
many times it is the Pope muddying the water. judyt
John's
response > What bothers me in
this reply is that I honestly do not see a plan for
dealing with those who are bent on our physical harm and intend to
accomplish this in the very near future.
John
Regarding the topic of
fighting the war on terrorism, Lance wrote
> On a personal (community) level we need to be
'living' this truth we 'talk'.
John, the following quotes are from the
Second century. I thought them relevant to your comment.
"For the Christians are distinguished
from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which
they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, ... nor lead
a life which is marked out by any singularity. ... But, inhabiting Greek
as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has
determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to
clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to
us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell
in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they
share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if
foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country,
and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry,
as do all; they beget children; but they do not needlessly cast of
fetuses [destroy their offspring]. They have a common table, but not a
common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh.
They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They
obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by
their lives. ... They are poor, yet make many rich; they are in
lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonored, and
yet in their very dishonor are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and
yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and
repay the insult with honor; they do good, yet are punished as
evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they
are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the
Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for
their hatred. ...
Do you not see them exposed to wild beasts, that they may be persuaded
to deny their Lord, and yet are not overcome? Do you not see that the
more of them are punished, the greater becomes the number of the rest?
This does not seem to be the work of man: this is the power of God;
these are evidences of His manifestation."
-- Mathetes
"But the Christians show kindness to those near them; and whenever they
are judges, they judge uprightly; ... they do good to their enemies; ...
if one of them have bondsmen and bondswomen or children, through love
towards them they persuade them to become Christians, and when they have
done so, they call them brethren without distinction. They do not
worship strange gods, and they go their way in all modesty and
cheerfulness. Falsehood is not found among them; and they love one
another. ... And he, who has, gives to him who has not, without
boasting. And when they see a stranger, they take him in to their own
homes and rejoice over him as a very brother. ... And if they hear that
one of their number is imprisoned or afflicted on account of the name of
their Messiah, all of them anxiously minister to his necessity. ... And
if there is any among them that is poor and needy, and they have no
spare food, they fast two or three days in order to supply to the needy
their lack of food. ...
Such, O King, is their manner of life. ... And verily, this is a new
people, and there is something divine in the midst of them."
-- Aristides
"We know many among ourselves who
have given themselves up to bonds, in order that they might ransom
others. Many too have surrendered themselves to slavery, that with the
price which they received for themselves, they might provide food for
others."
-- Clement of Rome
"But among Christians you will find
ignorant persons and artisans, and old women who, though they are unable
in words to prove the benefit of their doctrine, yet by their deeds
exhibit the benefit arising from their persuasion of its truth: they do
not rehearse speeches, but exhibit good works; when struck, they do not
strike again; when robbed, they do not go to law; they give of those who
ask of them, and love their neighbor as themselves."
--Athenagoras.
It may not look
like a plan, John, but it is the life we are called to
live. In the Fourth century Rome wearied of its war against
Christianity -- and promptly joined it. Not long after that,
Christians were acting like Romans, a truth born out many times over the
following centuries. I know the Jihadists hate us, but I am not
convinced it's because of our Faith. If we are to win this war, my
friend, it will not be with M1s and Daisy-cutters. Islam will have to go
the way of Rome. I pray we will not make the
same mistake twice.
"For though we
live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The
weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.
..."
-- Paul
Blessings,
Bill
