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If Bill was not advocating the wisdom of these CF in
his post, then please explain to me Lance what he was
promoting - Oh thou who reads with care.
jt
Judy:Bill wasn't saying that the CF are THE answer.
This is a distinction with a difference. Sometimes you read with care while at
other times....
Lance I never assume that
anyone knows anything on the internet and if the roles are reversed I never
mind
when people remind me of truth even if I know it
already. As for straw and herring, if Bill wasn't saying
that
the writings of the Church Fathers are the answer -
why did he go to the trouble of posting them followed by
a scripture reference about not using carnal
weapons. We use spiritual weapons to pull down spiritual
strongholds which is what the apostle is writing
about. If I am mistaken what IYO is Bill talking about?
Judyt:'Twas John's question, right? I note your
answer to JOHN: "the plan is already in place and is being carried out as we
write."
Judy, do you have on hand a cupboard full of
'herring & straw"? 'Not surprisingly' you know that John knows what you
said herein. Unless I truly missed it (please correct me, John) he's asking
about 'human strategy'. Just to help: even though "my God will supply are your
needs" yet do I shop for groceries regularly. The fromer does not nullify the need for the latter. But, not
surprisingly, you already know that.
Hey Lance:
When you return from OZ we can begin some rational
dialogue. The plan is already in place
and is being carried out as we write and there is a
God in heaven who oversees the plans of men. For those who believe
they know better or could do better... Oh well!!
Judyt:Bill, not surprisingly, isn't suggesting
the counsel of the (RCC) Church Fathers over the WOG in the NT. Not
surprisingly, you already knew that. (the man was straw and, the
herring was red). Do you, indeed does
anyone, have an answer to John's very important question?:"a plan for
dealing with those who are bent on our physical harm and intend to
accomplish this in the very near future"
Hi John:
Not surprisingly I don't agree with Bill on this
issue. Why seek counsel from the RC Church Fathers when we have the
wisdom of God in the New Testament itself? It is important to have
the mind of God in Christ about these issues. The scriptures teach that at
the Second Coming Jesus will judge the world in righteousness after
which He will rule the earth with a rod of iron - In the meantime His
followers are to be in the process of being sanctified, that is,
dealing with their own issues (of the heart) in being conformed to His
image. I don't see any mandate for the merging of Church and State
in scripture until Jesus' return. Constantine had no genuine
conversion before he publicly merged Church and State in Rome (345AD)
after his supposed epiphany. >From all accounts his behavior did
not change, he continued to have people murdered and was not
baptized until he was on his deathbed. Constantine is responsible for
merging paganism and public religion into the system that morphed
into today's RCC.
The Lord speaks to us through the apostle Paul
who writes that God gives government the authority to weild the sword
which leaves the Church free to love (Romans 13:4-6) and so we are to pray
for them and support them in this. The confusion happens when we try to
confuse the two. The RCC is more political than spiritual and IMO
looks nothing at all like the "image of Christ" and too many times it
is the Pope muddying the water. judyt
John's response
> What bothers me in this reply is that I honestly do not see a plan for dealing with those who are
bent on our physical harm and intend to accomplish this in the very near
future. John
Regarding the topic of
fighting the war on terrorism, Lance wrote > On
a personal (community) level we need to be 'living' this truth we
'talk'.
John, the following quotes are from the
Second century. I thought them relevant to your comment.
"For the Christians are distinguished
from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which
they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, ... nor lead a
life which is marked out by any singularity. ... But, inhabiting Greek as
well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has
determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to
clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us
their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in
their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in
all things with others, and yet endure all things as if
foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country,
and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as
do all; they beget children; but they do not needlessly cast of fetuses
[destroy their offspring]. They have a common table, but not a common bed.
They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass
their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They obey the
prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their
lives. ... They are poor, yet make many rich; they are in lack of all
things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonored, and yet in their
very dishonor are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are
justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and repay the
insult with honor; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When
punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the
Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate
them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.
...
Do you not see them exposed to wild beasts, that they may be persuaded to
deny their Lord, and yet are not overcome? Do you not see that the more of
them are punished, the greater becomes the number of the rest? This does
not seem to be the work of man: this is the power of God; these are
evidences of His manifestation."
--
Mathetes
"But the Christians show kindness to those near them; and whenever they
are judges, they judge uprightly; ... they do good to their enemies; ...
if one of them have bondsmen and bondswomen or children, through love
towards them they persuade them to become Christians, and when they have
done so, they call them brethren without distinction. They do not worship
strange gods, and they go their way in all modesty and cheerfulness.
Falsehood is not found among them; and they love one another. ... And he,
who has, gives to him who has not, without boasting. And when they see a
stranger, they take him in to their own homes and rejoice over him as a
very brother. ... And if they hear that one of their number is imprisoned
or afflicted on account of the name of their Messiah, all of them
anxiously minister to his necessity. ... And if there is any among them
that is poor and needy, and they have no spare food, they fast two or
three days in order to supply to the needy their lack of food.
...
Such, O King, is their manner of life. ... And verily, this is a new
people, and there is something divine in the midst of them."
--
Aristides
"We know many among ourselves
who have given themselves up to bonds, in order that they might ransom
others. Many too have surrendered themselves to slavery, that with the
price which they received for themselves, they might provide food for
others."
-- Clement of Rome
"But among Christians you will find
ignorant persons and artisans, and old women who, though they are unable
in words to prove the benefit of their doctrine, yet by their deeds
exhibit the benefit arising from their persuasion of its truth: they do
not rehearse speeches, but exhibit good works; when struck, they do not
strike again; when robbed, they do not go to law; they give of those who
ask of them, and love their neighbor as themselves."
--Athenagoras.
It may not look like a plan,
John, but it is the life we are called to live. In the Fourth
century Rome wearied of its war against Christianity -- and promptly
joined it. Not long after that, Christians were acting like Romans, a
truth born out many times over the following centuries. I know the
Jihadists hate us, but I am not convinced it's because of our Faith.
If we are to win this war, my friend, it will not be with M1s and
Daisy-cutters. Islam will have to go the way of Rome. I pray we will not make the same mistake twice.
"For though we
live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The
weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. ..."
-- Paul
Blessings,
Bill
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