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Judyt:Insofar as one can discern the character of
TT participants, my sense is that each lives that which she/he says. Content
aside, I believe you all to be consistent practitioners of your dogma both
political & theological.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 23, 2004 07:01
Subject: [TruthTalk] On how to win the
war
Now Lance,
This is the pot calling the kettle black, you are
notorious for ignoring questions and points coming the other
way and responding with a 'one liner' that raises
some new objection and ignores what the other person said.
I don't presume to know my own motives much of the
time much less those of other people and since God
has not given me a job high up in Government, I just
let the ones who have those positions take care of
things - they can do that really well either with or
without my, yours, or Izzy's opinion :) and I'm thankful
that we have someone with courage in office, someone
who is not afraid to take a stand against evil.
Judyt:DavidM may have to 'crown' you the
'resident mocker'. Neither you nor Izzie respond to points made. You just fire
blanks.
You also write:
Judyt:Do you know many 'predators' the
protestants (read we and our kind) Be careful of 'beams', 'planks' and
'eyes'.
There are, sadly, as many such stories to be
written of the 'good guys'. But, once again, I believe that you already knew
that.
PS:Just read the quotes for the 'wisdom'
contained. Like I said they won't bite you.
Have you seen me promote
protestants or any denomination for that matter Lance? Those who are
righteous act like it.
Let's start calling a spade a spade
and stop calling evil good and making excuses for these organizations.
Why do you keep
implying that I did not read Bill's
post?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 23, 2004 05:11
Subject: [TruthTalk] On how to win the
war
Bill offered their wisdom whereas I
offered the wisdom of God as revealed in His Word using one scripture
reference; I don't recall any "diatribe" There is no need to demonize
the RCC, they've done it to themselves. Any organization claiming to
represent God with a large number of sexual predators in leadership are
fooling themselves along with anyone else foolish enough to follow their
example. Have you not learned anything at all through what has been
revealed these past few years? Even now the RCC protects Bishops who
were protecting the pedophile priests by giving them cushy jobs in
Rome.. Why are you so willing to demonize the US Government while
protecting an aberrent religious system? Makes no
sense.....
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Judyt:Bill wasn't 'promoting' anything. He
offered some wisdom from some people who lived a long time ago. There
was no need for a diatribe on your part (RCC demonization). Just read and
think about what you read. It won't bite you.
If Bill was not
advocating the wisdom of these CF in his post, then please explain to me
Lance what he was
promoting - Oh thou who reads with care.
jt
Judy:Bill wasn't saying that the CF are THE
answer. This is a distinction with a difference. Sometimes you read with
care while at other times....
Lance I never assume
that anyone knows anything on the internet and if the roles are reversed
I never mind
when people remind me of truth even if I know
it already. As for straw and herring, if Bill wasn't saying
that
the writings of the Church Fathers are the
answer - why did he go to the trouble of posting them followed
by
a scripture reference about not using carnal
weapons. We use spiritual weapons to pull down spiritual
strongholds which is what the apostle is
writing about. If I am mistaken what IYO is Bill talking
about?
Judyt:'Twas John's question, right? I note
your answer to JOHN: "the plan is already in place and is being carried
out as we write."
Judy, do you have on hand a cupboard
full of 'herring & straw"? 'Not surprisingly' you know that
John knows what you said herein. Unless I truly missed it (please
correct me, John) he's asking about 'human strategy'. Just to help: even
though "my God will supply are your needs" yet do I shop for
groceries regularly. The fromer does
not nullify the need for the latter. But, not surprisingly, you
already know that.
Hey
Lance:
When you return from OZ we can begin some
rational dialogue. The plan is already in place
and is being carried out as we write and
there is a God in heaven who oversees the plans of men. For
those who believe they know better or could do better... Oh
well!!
Judyt:Bill, not surprisingly, isn't
suggesting the counsel of the (RCC) Church Fathers over the WOG in the
NT. Not surprisingly, you already knew that. (the man was straw
and, the herring was red). Do
you, indeed does anyone, have an answer to John's very important
question?:"a plan for dealing with those who are bent on our physical
harm and intend to accomplish this in the very near future"
Hi
John:
Not surprisingly I don't agree with Bill on
this issue. Why seek counsel from the RC Church Fathers when we
have the wisdom of God in the New Testament itself? It is
important to have the mind of God in Christ about these issues. The
scriptures teach that at the Second Coming Jesus will judge the
world in righteousness after which He will rule the earth with a rod
of iron - In the meantime His followers are to be in the
process of being sanctified, that is, dealing with their own issues
(of the heart) in being conformed to His image. I don't see
any mandate for the merging of Church and State in scripture until
Jesus' return. Constantine had no genuine conversion before
he publicly merged Church and State in Rome (345AD) after his
supposed epiphany. >From all accounts his behavior did not
change, he continued to have people murdered and was not
baptized until he was on his deathbed. Constantine is responsible
for merging paganism and public religion into the system that
morphed into today's RCC.
The Lord speaks to us through the apostle
Paul who writes that God gives government the authority to weild the
sword which leaves the Church free to love (Romans 13:4-6) and so we
are to pray for them and support them in this. The confusion happens
when we try to confuse the two. The RCC is more political than
spiritual and IMO looks nothing at all like the "image of
Christ" and too many times it is the Pope muddying the water.
judyt
John's
response > What bothers me
in this reply is that I honestly do not see a
plan for dealing with those who are bent on our physical harm and
intend to accomplish this in the very near future.
John
Regarding the topic of
fighting the war on terrorism, Lance wrote
> On a personal (community) level we need to be
'living' this truth we 'talk'.
John, the following quotes are from the
Second century. I thought them relevant to your
comment.
"For the
Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor
language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither
inhabit cities of their own, ... nor lead a life which is marked out
by any singularity. ... But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian
cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and
following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food,
and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their
wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in
their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they
share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if
foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native
country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers.
They marry, as do all; they beget children; but they do not
needlessly cast of fetuses [destroy their offspring]. They have a
common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they
do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they
are citizens of heaven. They obey the prescribed laws, and at the
same time surpass the laws by their lives. ... They are
poor, yet make many rich; they are in lack of all things, and yet
abound in all; they are dishonored, and yet in their very
dishonor are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are
justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and repay
the insult with honor; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers.
When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are
assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the
Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for
their hatred. ...
Do you not see them exposed to wild
beasts, that they may be persuaded to deny their Lord, and yet are
not overcome? Do you not see that the more of them are punished, the
greater becomes the number of the rest? This does not seem to be the
work of man: this is the power of God; these are evidences of His
manifestation."
-- Mathetes
"But the Christians show kindness to those
near them; and whenever they are judges, they judge uprightly; ...
they do good to their enemies; ... if one of them have bondsmen and
bondswomen or children, through love towards them they persuade them
to become Christians, and when they have done so, they call them
brethren without distinction. They do not worship strange gods, and
they go their way in all modesty and cheerfulness. Falsehood is not
found among them; and they love one another. ... And he, who has,
gives to him who has not, without boasting. And when they see a
stranger, they take him in to their own homes and rejoice over him
as a very brother. ... And if they hear that one of their number is
imprisoned or afflicted on account of the name of their Messiah, all
of them anxiously minister to his necessity. ... And if there is any
among them that is poor and needy, and they have no spare food, they
fast two or three days in order to supply to the needy their lack of
food. ...
Such, O King, is their manner of life. ...
And verily, this is a new people, and there is something divine in
the midst of them."
-- Aristides
"We know many among ourselves
who have given themselves up to bonds, in order that they might
ransom others. Many too have surrendered themselves to slavery, that
with the price which they received for themselves, they might
provide food for others."
-- Clement of Rome
"But among Christians you will find
ignorant persons and artisans, and old women who, though they are
unable in words to prove the benefit of their doctrine, yet by their
deeds exhibit the benefit arising from their persuasion of its
truth: they do not rehearse speeches, but exhibit good works; when
struck, they do not strike again; when robbed, they do not go to
law; they give of those who ask of them, and love their neighbor as
themselves."
--Athenagoras.
It may not look
like a plan, John, but it is the life we are called to
live. In the Fourth century Rome wearied of its war against
Christianity -- and promptly joined it. Not long after that,
Christians were acting like Romans, a truth born out many times over
the following centuries. I know the Jihadists hate us, but I am
not convinced it's because of our Faith. If we are to win this war,
my friend, it will not be with M1s and Daisy-cutters. Islam will
have to go the way of Rome. I pray we will
not make the same mistake twice.
"For though
we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world
does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of
the world. ..."
-- Paul
Blessings,
Bill
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