Re: [TruthTalk] God Hates

[Wm. Taylor]

I get an image in my mind, Izzy, of you and Judy with your fingers in your ears, your eyes closed tightly and your tongues just a flapping: "lalalalalalalalalalalalala." What a sorry song!   The "refusal to repent of sin" may be a rejection of Jesus Christ, but it is not the rejection of Jesus Christ, i.e., the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And so, since this is what you mean, No I will not "admit that refusal to repent of sin is a rejection of Jesus," although I think it would be very foolish not to. Jesus himself said, "all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter." This is why he came: to bear our sins upon the cross and in so doing bring about reconciliation between God and humanity. That is what he did. It is the rejection in the face of the forgiveness that he wrought that leaves humans outside of his Salvation.   You can continue in your rejection of my words, Izzy, refusing to repent; and if you do, you will still be forgiven, although I think you are very foolish. The truth is, it takes a far worse sin than that to send you to hell: "but he (or she) who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation."   Thank you God that we are saved by Jesus Christ and not our works!   There're some other comments below. ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:09 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] God Hates Izzy�s new comments in hot pink below: Legal repentance says: �Repent, and if you repent you will be forgiven,� as if God is persuaded into being merciful by our acts of repentance.No, God gave us these conditions. Jesus said in Luke 13:3 AND 13:5: 3   "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Here our forgiveness is conditional upon our deeds of obedience.  BT: I guess I am missing your point, Izzy. How does this take away from what I've said? The "repentance" to which Jesus is referring is a repentance from their rejection of him. If anyone rejects Jesus Christ and the salvation he provided, and then refuses from that moment on to repent, he or she will certainly perish.  Bill please pay close attention to this: you just ignored how scripture completely invalidated the statement (above) by JBT. Please explain how you can accept BOTH statements; JBT�s alongside of Jesus�?   Bill: I'm not real sure where the problem is on this one, Izzy. But I will give it a shot. There is in Scripture the mention (in various ways) of an unpardonable sin, a sin for which there is no forgiveness. In Mark 3 Jesus identifies it as the blasphemy of the Holy Sprit.* The preacher to the Hebrews calls it a trampling underfoot the Son of God.** Peter says it is a denial or refusal of the Lord who redeemed us.*** And John refers to it as the sin which leads to death.**** All of these occurrences (and there are others) have at their source a conflict between the person of Christ and some faction or another of religious leaders, men (or women, if we are speaking in terms of today) who claim a stature or position of knowledge and authority. In each case these are men who blatantly reject Jesus Christ -- they are called "false prophets"; certain ones of them are "Pharisees"; they are "anti-christs," "deceivers," "wolves in sheep's clothing." And in each case there is a blatant refusal to accept Jesus as who he claims or is claimed to be. And so, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is described in each of these instances, is, I believe, a refusal on the part of humans, and especially any who hold positions of religious influence over other people, to receive the convicting witness and testimony and call of the Holy Spirit as to the truth of Jesus Christ, his salvific act, his personal and corporate identity, and/or his divine nature. These are those to whom I believe Christ was referring when he said he will say: "Away from me, I never knew you" (I must also add that I believe until a person, even one of these really rotten ones, takes his or her last breath, there is still time to repent. Nevertheless, John seems to indicate that at some point a person can become so hardened, after so many wonderful but squandered opportunities, that he will not and perhaps can not repent. See cf. 1 Joh 5 -- "I do not ask that [you] pray for [the one who commits the sin which leads to death]").   Bill the scripture that I quoted above did not refer to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.   Bill: I know you do not think so, Izzy, . . . but you are wrong. ___________________________________________   Jesus said, �unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.� How much more clearly can He state it? Can you admit that refusal to repent of sin IS a rejection of Jesus? Can we agree on that?   Bill: Again I say, these people had been following the crowd, so to speak, to hear what Jesus had to say (Luke refers to them as "some" of the crowd), but were refusing to believe he was who he claimed to be. Instead, they were testing him and trying to trip him up. Jesus, knowing their hearts and intent, tells them they all must repent or they will perish.   Now let's bring J.B. Torrance into the discussion. What he says is that forgiveness logically precedes repentance. Yes, I realize that.  But where did JESUS/scripture say that?      Bill: Jesus is speaking in regards to something different than Torrance, Izzy; that is all. Remember my scenario of the son in the pigpen, refusing the forgiveness of his father? That is what Jesus is talking about. Okay? But Torrance does not have in mind the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. He is talking about the universal forgiveness which is in Christ. It is this forgiveness that calls us to repentance. This is the forgiveness he sees in the biblical parable of the prodigal son.   It's like this: Jesus Christ is the God/man. Within the constitution of his person is the complete and absolute reconciliation between God and humanity. There is no longer a chasm between the two. Being our Kinsmen Redeemer, his blood is our blood and ours his: we are kinfolk. Therefore, we are all ontologically included in him. And as our Redeemer, he is our Representative. His repentance is our repentance; his sanctification is our sanctification; his righteousness is our righteousness, and so on. This is true now; it was true at the time of his encounter with the Pharisees (at least I suspect they were Pharisees) in the passage you are so adamant about, and this even though he had yet to go to the cross; i.e., even at that time he was already their Representative. Throughout the whole ordeal, theirs was a blatant refusal to accept him. Hence they are the prodigals in the scenario, too stubborn to repent. They are the ones who on the last day will want to talk about all the things they did in the Lord's name, but to them Jesus will say, "Away from me, for I never knew you."   BUT they are not the son who came to his senses and rushing home, the son in the parable. Hence, they are not the son Torrance is talking about. Nevertheless, if they would have come to their senses, as some of them later did, they too could have returned home to their father's embrace.   __________________________________________________________   I have heard him say that forgiveness carries with it judgment, i.e., a verdict of guilt. If I say I will forgive you for this or that, I am also saying that I think you are guilty of committing whatever it is for which I am forgiving you. The indication that this is true is evidenced in that at first you may be offended that I am extending forgiveness to you. Later on, however, you may have had some time to reconsider and will admit to yourself that, yes, you were guilty. At this point of acceptance is the point where repentance begins to take place. It may still be a while before you are willing to admit to me your guilt, but you at least have begun to acknowledge it to yourself. And that is where one has agreed with God that he is a sinner, repented of his sin, aXnXdXgXoXtXtXeXnXsXaXvXeXd.   This I think is what Torrance sees in the parable of the prodigal son. The father's forgiveness was not dependant upon or conditioned by the actions of the son; i.e., the son did not have to repent in order to persuade the father to be merciful and forgive him. The father's was a heart of forgiveness; he already knew the son would squander his inheritance; their was no question of this in his mind; moreover, the son was guilty as charged. Yet he was forgiven. The father had forgiven him. But there was no reconciliation/relationship, you must admit, until the son repented.   Bill: Their was no relationship, Izzy, because the son refused it. Their was no reconciliation in the son's imagination. But in reality the father had forgiven him. Look what Paul says to the Corinthians: "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, . . . [i.e.] God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, . . . Now then, we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God" (2Cor 5.18-20). God in Christ has reconciled himself with everyone of us; there is no problem on God's end. The problem with some people (like the unrepentant prodigal in the scenario) is that they refuse to be reconciled. We implore them on Christ's behalf, "Be reconciled to God." And we do this knowing that God has forgiven them (not counting their sins against them) and that there is no longer a rift between God and man. But when we do, we also realize that some will refuse to repent and will never believe the word of truth, the good news of their salvation. These not only do not have a relationship with the Father, but their refusal to believe in Christ's reconciliation, barring repentance, will also eventually send them to hell.   Izzy, I know quite well where you are coming from: I grew up there. How about if, before you shoot me back an answer, you take a fews days to ponder and pray about what I am saying. Maybe when you begin to consider the distinctions between us, you will want to lift your voice in a new song.       Blessings,   Bill    * "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation" --Mark 3.28-29 ** Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? -- Hebrews 10.28-29 *** But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.  -- 2 Peter 2.1 **** If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. --I John 5.16-17