John writes:
And one more thing -- sin is no longer the deciding factor in our relationship with Christ. Romans 3:23 is constantly ignored on this forum by several who want to make personal and individual righteousness the issue that determines our saving relationship (is there another kind) with the Lord. You know what it says but I will remind you: All have sinned and fall short (present tense action -- "are falling short even as we speak") of the glory of God.
jt: Sure because no-one is there yet not even the "all encompassing incarnational crowd" but we need to read on. There is Romans 7 where Paul describes his own battle with the part of him that is not wanting to be Spirit led... and then we read on further to Romans 8:2,3 and learn that there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus - and here is the condition ... who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.
jUDYt
It is hard to believe just how far off the biblical message you are. Chapter 7 actually ends with 8:1 -- there is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ !! "Therefore" is a word that is saying "based upon what I have said before ..." It is a word that looks back. 8:1 is tied to 7:25. What Paul says afterwards effects the discussion but 8:1 has importance because of 7:25.
Your perfectionist theology forces you to ignore the conclusion Paul draws, not just for himself as you claim but for us all, deny that 7:25 has anything to do with us today in spite of the fact that this is exactly what it says, misapply 8:5 and then continue to believe and espouse that God has given you this interpretation.
Try asking yourself the question, why is Paul concerned with "condemnation" in Ro 8:1? I doubt that you have ever asked yourself this question. But it is a pertinent question, nonetheless. And why is "condemnation" suddenly in the picture when it is not referenced or even implied in the preceding context? THE ONLY REASON FOR THE QUESTION IN 8:1 IS WHAT IS SAID IN 7:25. We have two natures and one of them serves the law of sin and death -- that is Paul's opinion so don't start with "false teaching" or "Kruger theology" or whatever will be used to color the fact that you cannot over come this point. Part of me serves the law of sin and death; this is deserving of condemnation but, praise the Lord, there is none for those who set their minds on things of the Spirit (8:5). Does God want us to obey all of the commandments? Of course he does -- but there is that pesky second fleshly nature. And if you think Romans 7 14-25 is the only passage that gives us this consideration, well, think again, Misssy. Turn to Eph 4:14 - 23 - a passage in which Paul is urging the Ephesian CHRISTIANS, THE SAVED, THE ALREADY REDEEMED, THE DISCIPLE OF CHRIST, THOSE WHO HAVE THE SPIRIT AND ARE CLOTHED WITH "ARMOR OF GOD," to lay aside their the old self WHICH IS BEING CORRUPTED in accordance with the lusts of deceits,. (4:22). Think about it ---- THEY STILL HAVE THAT OLD MAN. he HAS MORE LIVES THAN A CAT BUT HIS INFLUENCE DECREASES AS WE GROW UP IN CHRIST. In James 4, that author tells his people to "confess your sins, one to another that you might be heale>" WHAT SINS?? These are the redeemed !! But they continue to sin.
You asked "why separate sin into different venues" or words to that effect -- "sin is sin" you say. Absolute nonsense.. The is a sin we commit -- the biblical writers believe that we do not have to commit sin. But there is sin that define us as people. Pride, conceit, bigotry, arrogance, boastfulness, selfishness and the like. These sins exist in all of us (Ro 2:1) and only the most biased of students would deny that reality. Another sin reality is that of "omission." When we know to do something and do it not. And there is a forth venue -- defiant and rebellious sin. Sin that is not only self-serving but acted out in full rebellion to God. II Pet 2:1-16 is a great passage for this reality. THIS GUY IS DEAD ALREADY -- HE IS LOST. NO CHANCE, NO WAY. Christ cannot help this person because he does not want to be helped. Just read the passage. I have sin all the time (I John 1:8 -- the Apostle John tells us this , not John Smithson). But I do not rise to the level of sin described in II Pet 2.
All of us on this list could do much much more for the Lord, as they say, than we do. Our righteousness is as filthy rags in comparison to Gods. Because of these various sin applications, GOD HAS TO EXCHANGE OUR FAITH AND CALL IT "RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Have you ever asked yourself, "Why does God have to 'reckon faith as righteousness'?"
You think He does just for heck of it? Or because HE HAS TO -- HE HAS NO CHOICE.
He has to make the exchange because my "righteousness" on its best day does not even come close to God's expectations. How do you compare to Christ ???? -- and if you tell me "pretty good," I don't want to talk to you anymore.
You talk about the fantasy that God comes into your life and empowers you to never sin. No one believes in an indwelling Christ more than me. He gives us power to God and thus to conquer. Why would he suddenly and miraculously end our sinning WHEN WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN PRONOUNCED RIGHTEOUS?????
jOHN
actually at least four) venues in which sin works its ugly will, two of which are pertinent to this discussion: historical sin and sins of character. Smoking, drinking, cursing, doping, etc are sins commited in time -- they are historical, having a beginning and an ending. Sins of character are very different. They are with us all the time and form the basis for those things we commit (the historical sin). Pride, conceit, bigotry, anger, selfishness, and the life and so we sin and continually fall short of the glory of God.
There are three (
jt: Sin is sin - what purpose is there is dividing them up, we need to repent and depart from all of them. I would see your "historical" category as the iniquities of the Fathers because these kind of attitudinal things are often passed down in families. But... however they come we need to repent and finish it right now in our generation.
Where is your scripture that tells Christians to continue to repent? You turn around ONCE and begin your journey back to the Father. But you keep on confessing. You keep on praying.. You keep on believing and growing and so on -- do you need scriptures?
If anything, repentance occurs before belief. but it is never in scripture, encouraged as a repeated action the saved. Why -- because Paul is admonishing his brothers to, among other thing, not sin, to stop their anger, their bickering, their gossip and general misbehavior WHILE THEY REMAIN IN THE GRACE OF GOD AND WELL ON THEIR WAY HOME. Sin is an unwelcome part of who they so Paul is constantly admonishing them to STOP. Howwever, he does not use the word "repent' over and over again --- and why? Because sin in their lives does not mean that they have lost their way. Repentance is not necessary, understanding that repentance is a turning around, walking one way and then turning and walking another. These sinners, the ones we call "Christians," already asknowledge the righteousness of God and server him But they still have their battles and character flaws,.
John
This is why John can say that we "have sin" at any time (I Jo 1:8.) We are no better than those whom we despise. It is Christ who makes us right. It is His faith and victory that saves and this never changes. We always need Him and are always lost without Him.
jt: It is impossible to walk in love and despise others and if this is where we are walking we are not walking in anything belonging to Christ. His faith and victory only avail for us when we walk in them. John also wrote "he who sins is of the devil"
judyt
