RE: [TruthTalk] Read it and weep!

[ShieldsFamily]

Izzy in red:   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 8:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Read it and weep!   In a message dated 10/2/2004 6:38:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Knpraise writes: In a message dated 10/2/2004 11:16:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, yes I do think that pride, selfishness, etc. are sins.  Why would you assume I don’t.  I consider all 3 types of sin to be sin.  So doesn’t that pretty much cover it? I do not dismiss Romans 3:23, or any other scripture.  I am telling you to consider all scripture together, in context. MY Bible does not say “and keep on falling short of the glory…”  Which translation do you have? The “sin reality” theory, which is actually sin unreality? J Izzy Selfishness is not something you commit.  Rather, it is something you are.   Hence, you are always a sinnner in that regard  --  becasue you are always a selfish person, or a prideful person.  The person walking in the Spirit, rather than in the Flesh, is NOT “always a selfish/prideful person”.  How sad that you think that.  It grieves me.  MY Bible does not say “and keep on falling short of the glory…”   Sure it does.  The verb in the greek ("fall short" )  is a present tense verb.   The action of present tense is linear or contining action.    "  I breath to maintain life"  is the same as "I am breathing to maintain life."     "I am eating my food" is present tense.   "....are falling short of the glory of God ... " is present tense.  You do not have to be a greek student to understand "present tense."   There is no discussion of this  --  it is a very simple fact of grammar.  You are experiencing a "gotcha" moment.   Could be good for you.  Similarly, I Jo 1:8 says "if we say that we have no sin  ....."   This is present tense and pictures action that is occurring right now  -- present time.   "If we say that we are having no sin... " would be an acceptable translation.   Normally,  holiness perfectionists reject exegetical conclusions such as this  -- for obvious reasons.   John John, If you are going to hang all of your theology on insisting this is what scripture says, let me explain it to you even if that is so.  You could read the sentence to say, “We have all sinned (past tense), so we all fall short of the glory of God (present tense).” Why??? Because, having sinned (past tense) we are tarnished vessels (now and forever); apart from the cleansing Blood of Jesus. Apart from His sacrifice we can never be “cleaned up” enough to dwell in the presence of His glory.  But through His saving grace we are both cleansed and made righteous—able to live righteously. What is the test of whether we are indwelt by His Spirit?  We STOP bearing fruit consistent with a sinner: selfishness, pride, lust, envy, party spirit, drunkenness, violence, etc., etc.  INSTEAD we bear the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, faithfulness, kindness, goodness, self-control.  Judge the tree by its fruit.  What fruit are you bearing that you would assume that everyone lives in selfishness and pride, etc? This is inconsistent with scripture. Izzy