Re: [TruthTalk] Arafat is Dying

Thomas Sat, 30 Oct 2004 08:28:59 -0700

----- Original Message -----

From: Judy Taylor

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 1:22 AM

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Arafat is Dying

Greetings, Thomas or Bill:

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:26:49 -0600 "Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Thanks for the helpful insight, Slade. I'm with you. Let us not confuse ourselves by projecting our fall-laden notions of hatred upon God. God is love. It is right and just for him "to oppose" the wicked. This we can reconcile in our thinking; that is, we can understand how God could rightly oppose a wicked and violent man while at the same time continue to love him -- just as a father may be right in opposing a rebellious son, yet love him still.

But there will be some, I fear, who will not accept your substitution. Try not to let it get you down. I would like to suggest that it is easier for humans (Christians included) to believe that God would hate wicked people than it is for us to think that he could love them. As sad as this commentary is (given the greater narrative of our God), it seems to be consistent with a fallen nature. After all, who would deny that it is easier to hate our enemies than it is for us to love them? Yet we are commanded to love our enemies. And so, what should we make of it: Are we to think that he who makes this command does not practice what he preaches? Are we to love our enemies, when he himself does not?

jt: We are free to love our enemies Bill because God has said "vengeance is mine, I will repay" so that leaves us free to forgive.

Bill: Wonderful, Judy. And what is it that makes God "free to forgive"?

_________________________________________________________________________________

Of course God is love; but when you make love into God you err and those who remove his judgment and justice make him into something he is not. IOW you have constructed your own God.

Bill: I appreciate your concern, Judy. I am sure I would appreciate it even more if I were feeling convicted by it. Will you please demonstrate from what I have written how I have done this?

__________________________________________________________________________________

Changing his Word to fit your mental concept also makes your own God. Psalm 11 does not say oppose, it says hate. Now is it OK for God to be God or can't you accept him for how he is?

Bill: I couldn't accept him at all, were it not for his regenerating grace, the love he lavished on me while I was, I suppose, every bit as wicked and violent and deserving of death as the man mentioned in the Psalms.

God will be God with or without our stamp of approval. Our task, it seems to me, is to use whatever tools (gifts?) are at our disposal to begin to apprehend God for who he is. The most important question is the one asked of Peter: "Who do you say that I am." Indeed, God's greatest revelation is found first in his Son Jesus Christ. Via the work of the Holy Spirit, we begin to know the Father through the Son ("In these last days he has spoken to us through his Son"); we then take that relationship with us to our study of Scripture -- that means we even take it back to our study of the Old Testament. We let what we have learned about the Father through the Son inform our thinking -- and in some cases, re-thinking -- on every occasion.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Of course not. God is consistent in all his works and ways. The God who is love at his core may oppose his enemies, but he does not hate them. His is an opposition which is consistent with his being. Even in his opposition, God is for us; for God is love -- enemies included.

Your god sounds universalist or unitarian Bill.

Bill: "Unitarian" is out with my mention of a Father/Son relationship (into which we are adopted). "Universalism" is out because, as unfathonable as it is, God's grace can be rejected. However, I do believe in the all-inclusive nature of Christ's atoning work, in other words, a universal reconciliation: i.e., "that God was in Christ reconcialing the world to himself."

Say, I have answered your questions, will you answer one of mine: What was represented by the curtain or veil in the Temple; in other words, What did it picture?

___________________________________________________________________________________

Does he also love the devil? What about the angels that rebelled?

Bill: I do not know much about God's interaction with the spirit world. Angels are "mesengers," but are they relational beings in the sense that we are? I don't think so. God created us (humanity) for adoption in Christ. To be created (or re-created) in the "image of God," I believe, is, among other things, to be created a relational being, one with the capaacity to willfully enter into covenant with his or her Creator. This, I believe, is how God created human beings. The question you are asking, it seems to me, is predicated on an assumption that angels and demons were created with the same kind of relational status or capacity. I do not think they were: Christ did not redeem them. So to answer your question, No, I do not think God loves them in the relational, familial way that he loves us. He certainly opposes the activity of the devil and fallen angels.

Oh, you didn't get to this question either; do you want to give it a stab: The question, it seems to me, in this day of terror and error and hatred is how ought we oppose our enemies?

----- Original Message -----
From: Slade Henson

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 6:01 PM

Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Arafat is Dying

I think you guys have been playing nicely so far. Only a bit of sand has been flung in each other's eyes. Do you mind if I step in and make a small comment?

Look at Psalm 11:4-7 and its use of the English word hate. We look at hate as a "strong emotion of disdain and strong negative feelings (perhaps even evoking the desire for murder)." Can I ask you to transplant the English word oppose in place of hate? Do you think that fits God's personality better? I do. Now, look at Strong's/Young's and see if you agree on the English word oppose's usage.

(Another way of looking at this word -- the Hebrew word sane -- is one who needs to change.)

-- slade

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:48 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Arafat is Dying

'Tweeking':But for the Grace of God....any one of us could...

----- Original Message -----

From: ShieldsFamily

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: October 29, 2004 11:10

Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Arafat is Dying

Psalm 11:4 The LORD is in His ⁽⁷⁾ holy temple; the LORD'S ⁽⁸⁾ throne is in heaven;
          His ⁽⁹⁾ eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.
⁵
       The LORD ⁽¹⁰⁾ tests the righteous and ⁽¹¹⁾ the wicked,
          And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
⁶
       Upon the wicked He will ⁽¹²⁾ rain ^[1] snares;
          ⁽¹³⁾ Fire and brimstone and ⁽¹⁴⁾ burning wind will be the portion of ⁽¹⁵⁾ their cup.
⁷
       For the LORD is ⁽¹⁶⁾ righteous, ⁽¹⁷⁾ He loves righteousness;
          The upright will ⁽¹⁸⁾ behold His face.

Re: [TruthTalk] Arafat is Dying

Reply via email to