RE: [TruthTalk] Intentional sin -- the Judas factor

[Jonathan Hughes]

Hi Izzy,   Your comment below disturbs me.  First you drop a scripture bomb as if that is all that is needed to be said for the subject to be closed.  Then you say that Jesus says that Judas was lost.  Then you imply that Lance has a lower view of scripture than your own exalted one.  It all has to do with your erroneous views of theology – thinking that scripture doesn’t mean a whit to liberals is not only insulting, it is just plain stupid.  Others before me have expressed to you that taking some time to study the Greek or Hebrew that was used to write the Bible you read would be helpful for you.  This is yet another one of those cases.  Concerning the verse you state below (John 17:12) please read the following from an article posted at: http://www.workmanmin.com/Studies/Judas.pdf   The first instance of “kept” is the Greek ‘tereo’ (Strong’s #5083: pronounced tay-reh’-o). This word means ‘to watch with the intent of preserving’ (i.e. ‘maintain’). It is the same word used in 17:6 and 11. In 17:6 it refers directly to the apostles (with application to believers) who have ‘maintained’ the unity and purpose of Christ’s instruction (salvation by Grace) [that includes Judas, by the way]. In 17:11 it refers to Christ’s petition to God the Father to ‘maintain’ the practical po-sition of the apostles despite the influence of the world. Both times the word means ‘maintain.’ The first instance of the word ‘keep’ in 17:12 refers to Christ having ‘maintained’ the apostles posi-tional security by the authority vested in Him by the Father. The second instance of the word ‘keep’ is a different Greek word. This one is ‘phulasso’ (Strong’s #5442: pronounced foo-las’-so). It literally means “to guard from outside influence” (i.e., to ‘isolate’). In this case the context is that Christ ‘isolated’ the apostles from Satan’s direct influ-ence [i.e. Mk.8:33; Jn.18:9]. All that is except Judas. Judas was not ‘isolated’ from Satan. Posi-tionally speaking, there is no reason to believe that Judas was not still saved, but practically speak-ing it is obvious that he was left unprotected from Satan’s onslaught—the results of which we are already familiar with.   Now that you realize that Jesus was not speaking about salvation in this passage you may be interested in following up on why some people think that Judas was indeed saved.  These are people who love scripture just as much as you do; in fact I would suggest that they may love it more.  They are willing to put a little bit more effort into their reading.  Lance suggested a book.  I have put an article for you below that will help you begin your studies.  When it all comes down to it I suggest you take Lance’s point of view that only God knows if Judas will be in heaven or not.   Jonathan   Was Judas Saved? - February 11, 2002 First and foremost, I highly encourage you to read Matthew 10 before reading this article. Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. Matthew 10:1 Here it says that Jesus gave these 12 authority. This was not some sort of high priest authority, nor was it kingship over some province in Judea. It was kingdom authority, and kingdom authority belongs to those who are part of the kingdom. Then the chapter goes on to list the 12 apostles in verses 2-4. Take note of verse 4. ...and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him. To betray somebody, requires a sense of trust. What sort of trust did Christ have with Judas? He had a trust established on faith. After all, Judas was a disciple of Christ, as well as an apostle. What did Christ say of those who are to be his disciples? Luke 14:27 has the answer... Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. So, for the scriptures to call Judas a disciple, means that Judas was living the "crucified life." Which would mean Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed our Lord, was a geniune, born again believer. He followed Christ time and time again. Christ called him, and he came. When Jesus lost many of his disciples, Judas was one that remained. People often try to discount the salvation of Judas by showing various "sins of Judas" throughout the gospel, and saying that Judas was simply following Christ for selfish gain. However, many other believers who are in God's "hall of fame of faith" in Hebrews 11 were also shown from time to time, to be living in some sort of sins. Yet they are known as champions of the faith. Does this mean that their sins show that they never really believed? Of course not. It simply shows that they sinned, but when they stumbled, they got back up. This is part of the process known as sanctification. And to further elaborate on the "sins of Judas"; I think it is funny that people often try to point out the sins of Judas, and say "Look, Judas was never a believer!" but of themselves they say "I am just lukewarm!" According to Matthew 10:1-15, the 12 apostles went out to proclaim the gospel, cast out demons, and heal various sicknesses. Judas would have been among them that had the authority to cast out demons, heal the sick, and preach. To further show that Judas was a believer, in Matthew 10:16 Jesus says to the 12, which Judas was one of... Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves;... In this verse, Jesus calls Judas a sheep! He does not call him a wolf, but a sheep! Sheep are ones who follow and are guided by a shepherd! Granted, there are some stray sheep, but this verse does not speak of stray sheep. It speaks of sheep who are following the commands of Christ, as He guides them, as He directs them. Also, Matthew 10:18-20 tells how disciples will be brought forth as a testimony to the world, and that the Spirit of "your Father" (showing that they are indeed born again), will give them utterance in their defense. All these things were spoken to the 12, all of them were followers of Christ. But, there was one of them that would not endure in faith, and of him is written "He who has found his life will lose it..." (Matthew 10:40). So, we are left with nothing but to conclude that Judas was a born again believer, a follower, a disciple of Christ, who for a short time carried his own cross. Christ was once tempted to toss Himself from the temple, and that the angels of God would catch Him. Judas tossed himself from Christ, and was caught by a rope. Article by Jimmy Humphrey - [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 12:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Intentional sin -- the Judas factor   (Ignore previous post on wrong subject thread!)   John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”   Lance, Jesus said Judas was lost. Why doesn’t that matter one whit to you? Izzy --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 11/15/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 11/15/2004