Think orange -- JD
jt: Wow! The above looks like Bible Study in reverse ie sifting scripture in search of sin and sorrow. To answer your questions (assuming they are sincere - I'm told that mine was not). Sadly Samson in his youthful folly did not listen; he broke his vow as a Nazarite for which he paid dearly - but what you see as a spiteful, vengeful ignoble death of revenge pleased God because at the end he rose in faith one more time to defend the cause of God and he managed to kill more Philistines in his death than he had done in all of his life (Judges 16:20); this can't be all bad since he is included in the Chapter of faith (Hebrews 11:32).
No kidding. That is my point Judy. He is considered a man of faith. You need to read the account of Samson's death. Do you think this is the first time I have brought this point up in a discussion. It usually gets axed -- until, of course, the critic actually reads the biblical account. Samsons' death was suicidal and for no other reason than revenge. My point being this ---------- there was a deep and bidding faith in God beneath that coarse exterior that God recognized as faith.
Noah's drunkenness/immorality is not a good example but he is the only one in his
generation who found grace in God's eyes and he was to be honored as a father Ham was punished and made a lifelong servant for "uncovering his nakedness" (the other brothers had more sense) and the fruit of Noah's immorality with his daughters became the Moabites/Canaanite Nations leading to even more grief for the people of God.
Again, you miss the point, Judy. Of course he was singled out by God because of his faith. How immoral does one have to be to get drunk and sleep with his own daughters? What is it that keeps us coming back to God? What is it that pricks our conscience? I say that it is that which is inside the man of faith -- his belief system which gets "violated" from time to time.
Sarah was complicit with Abraham in trying to perform God's promise after the flesh and
we are today reaping the consequences of that choice. God had chosen Jacob rather than Esau and would have given him the birthright with or without his help
Jacob was a grown boy and most certianly knew he was doing something :wrong." Would God have provided the birthright anyway? I will agree with that for the sake of argument. So what? Sarah and Jacob were manipulating the circumstance in the same useless manner as Abraham with Ishmael. But what is my point ------------- people of faith act against their faith all the time.
- What can I say about Jonah other than that 'he learned obedience by the things
suffered because of his folly' as per his prayer in the belly of the whale "Those who observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy" (Jonah 2:8) which is genuine repentance from the belly of the whale. We are told that the things written aforetime were written for our learning so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. Also on this side of Calvary we have the indwelling Spirit and insight into the realm of the spirit that old Covenant saints were not privy to and so more is expected from us.
Apparently you have not read all of the story of Jonah. Jonah was not only ticked about going but was ticked about the success of the mission.
This is what is so great about the biblical message -- it has the good stuff and the really crummy stuff about so many of the champions of faith. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between most of them and us was their unique calling. Keep looking for that beam, Judy.
Or your judgmentalism or my sarcasm or ---------------- you get the point. Linda just got through reminding me that there was was none righteous, "no not one."
jt: I believe it was I who quoted Romans John - unless Linda did also and I missed it.
Our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord. Soooooooooooooooo,,, no one is left to believe if our actions always demonstrate what we really believe and know to be true?
jt: No John, God has always and will always have a people. They may not be the majority but they will be there and they will make their presence known by faith in his great and precious promises, that is by acting upon and their example will be one of righteousness rather than a life of sin and shame. (Hebrews 11) So we need to focus on their victories rather than where they missed it.
You focus on their victories and ignore the rest of the biblical record about each. I will accept that they were just like us -- and the focus ???????????? Obviously, it needs to be on God in Christ. Our righteous is a gifted consideration from God. Our sanctification is a gifted consideration from God. Our very salvation is a gifted consideration from God. When it is all said and done, none of us can rise to such a level of maturity that we cease to be in need of the continual flow of the blood of the Lamb or His indwelling, or His community (the church, the Word, the Spirit, spiritual counsel whether in the form of Church Fathers or pastors and teachers. )
Indefensible in my book. The only reason "confession" works is because it is a statement of regret for sins and a pronoucement that we want agreement between what we already believe and our activity. Do a word study on "confession." You will find at its root this notion of agreement.
jt: I have already studied confession John and I understand it to be agreement with God; it is when we say what He has said already about the situation. ATST this is never possible without spiritual discernment.
Well, then, you apparently agree with me. Spiritual discernment comes from spiritual maturity ---- that is how the Spirit manifests the mind of God.
John
