Thanks Debbie for the clarification. I was going
to say that I have nothing against obedience, even costly obedience :-)
but I won't have to post that now.
Obedience is complex.
How? So you also believe that God is
big and bad; that he expects us to do the impossible while ATST touting His
love for all?
Abraham was told by God to sacrifice Isaac and it
was good that he obeyed.
It's always good to obey and Abraham is
our example, he is the Father of faith.
David was told by God to take a census (1 Sam.
24) and it was bad that he obeyed.
David was NOT told by God to take a
census; God does not judge his children for being obedient. He is not
confused.
Jonah and Paul were coerced into obedience at
least once in their life.
They weren't coerced into anything; they
chose just like everyone else. Jonah repented in the belly of that fish, he
didn't have to. Paul repented of
his unbelief also - Selah...
Most of the time, we just muddle
along.
Muddling along is hardly a life of faith
and I don't see any of that in Hebrews 11...
Should Bonhoeffer had involved himself in the
plot to kill Hitler?
Our judgment is clouded by the fact that the plot
failed and Hitler executed a fair number of them and Bonhoeffer ended up in a
concentration camp.
The Germans waited too long to take a
stand against Hitler - (and Hitler began in the German courts, he did it all
legally). The USA is in this predicament
right now. We have an arrogant and corrupt Judiciary who we have
just
watched murder an innocent woman. By the time ppl in this country
who could have acted wake up it may be too
late also but this in no way proves
that God is on the side of evil. Just that men fear men more than they
fear God.
And what angelic and demonic battles were waged
behind the scene while all this was going on? Would timely prayer or action
have
aided the angels? That is the direction I hope to
direct people's thoughts. Love,
Caroline
Only the prayers of "righteous" men avail
much; not men who hold to grand doctrines while walking after the flesh.
There are angels who are being held in chains of darkness and scripture tells
us that we (the Church) will judge angels. How did Noah judge his
generation? He believed God, built an Ark in the desert,
to God's specifications while the rest of humanity laughed -
But he had the last laugh. It is impossible to judge the unrighteous when we
walk and look just like them. judyt
Could it be that Terry
and Caroline are talking about different things, both of which are
true?
Caroline, I think I understand what you mean,
that if we are continually forcing ourselves on an issue and it feels like a
burden and there is no joy in doing it, or if we just can't come to the
point of "obedience", there is probably something underlying that needs to
be resolved. Or else we are placing undue demands on ourselves that are
really not from God and have nothing to do with obedience (maybe they're
from legalistic friends! :-) ). Or we are not respecting the reality of
the journey and are trying to shortcut by leaping ahead to stuff we are not
yet mature enough for. Or we're living out of our own strength. Just
gritting our teeth and putting our nose to the grindstone won't
help. Am I understanding that right? If so, I agree.
But I wonder if Terry may be talking about
something different and more healthy. I think it's normal for there to
be some struggle to obey a lot of the time, a kind of struggle that
is completely transparent, has nothing to do with demons or
confusion and just comes from the Old Man stirring again (as
referenced in a recent thread involving JD and David, in which they
agreed). We may be fully correct about the rut we have been
given our way out of, but that don't make it easy to get
out. Some of the best joy we experience comes from
having gone through that struggle successfully. In finally
submitting to the Spirit we are enabled to recognize the
grace and strength of Christ in us to carry out what all our own
striving cannot accomplish. I am willing to consider "just do
it" as shorthand for that.
We have to remember that we are part
of the creation; we aren't resurrected yet, and there isn't a part of
us that is extricable from our body. He remembers we are dust, and so should
we. Some groaning and longing mixed with the joy and
peace is unavoidable. But you have often reminded
us, Caroline, that if we muck it up again (and again), this
doesn't affect the relation in which we stand to God and we don't have
to wonder if we have slipped a notch with him or been
taken off the honour roll. That's the beauty. (With people, it's
another thing!)
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:17
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13
fg. - Perhaps it's focus is WHO not so much WHAT
Terry:
Jesus asked, "Why do you call me Lord, and do not do as I tell
you?"
We obey because He is Lord and we are not. Simple as
that. Though love is the ideal motive, it does not matter
whether you feel like doing it out of love, or fear, or do not feel like
doing it at all. He is not wringing His hands hoping we will someday
obey. He demands obedience, because He deserves obedience. HE
IS LORD!
Caroline:
Nothing is simple when it comes to humans and saying it is sweeps a
lot of things under the carpet. If someone loves Jesus and wants
to do His will but can't it could be
a) unresolved sin issues that needs to be confessed. This may even be
generational or spousal sins
b) spiritual warfare that needs to be confronted.
c) misunderstanding of what Jesus really wants and the Spirit is
saying stop!
d) something else needs to be done first
e) woundedness that needs to be healed first. What if someone cheated
us financially and we haven't forgiven them? Or what if we grew up poorer
than our neighbours? In some people, an inability to tithe may have its
roots in that unforgiveness or inability to trust God's care.
I'm sure others can think of blocks to obedience. "Just do it" is an
awful yoke to place on people's neck. Jesus said his yoke is easy and his
burden light and that we're to learn from him and he will give us rest. If
the yoke is hard and the burden is heavy, we're under the wrong master or
we haven't heard his voice instructing us on how to obey. It would also
mean giving up on a lot of joy and peace.
