Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13 fg. - Perhaps it's focus is WHO not so much WHAT

[Caroline Wong]

I've been doing some thinking about 2 Samuel 24 and came up with some ideas that will definitely freak people out here.   SO PLEASE CLOSE YOUR EYES AND PRESS DELETE! DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU!!!!   My denomination affirms biblical inerrancy. It's our #1 core value. (The Trinity is #2. See, Lance, I told you to close your eyes.) But our theologians understand inerrancy to mean inerrancy in the autographs. That got me thinking about how many years there is between 2 Samuel and the earliest copy we have available for translation. It was probably written about 900 BC and the Septuagint was translated between 300-200 BC. The people who created the Septuagint said they corrected numerous errors that has crept into the Hebrew Bible while they translated. We use this source for our translation.   Jeremiah complained in Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Apparently, people changed some words to suit certain political or theological thinking.   The Jews have a theology that Satan works for God as an accuser or tempter to test the quality of our faith. He is not a fallen angel but one who has a specific job in God's kingdom. They kinda make fun of the Christian theology of Satan and the kingdom of darkness. What if someone working on Samuel thought if Satan is doing it, then God is doing it and substituted the name to give God more glory. Perhaps the Chronicler was inspired to correct that. The Jews appear to be more aware of spiritual warfare after the exile. They had a problem with idolatry before they went but not after. Jeremiah was also the last prophet in Judah before they got dragged off to exile.   We have to ultimate revelation in Jesus Christ. We know there is a kingdom of darkness.   Love   Caroline ----- Original Message ----- From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13 fg. - Perhaps it's focus is WHO not so much WHAT Right, that's another question: What constitutes "the right thing to do" in a given situation, and how do we know? I agree, we do a heck of a lot of muddling along, since we often don't know. Thank goodness we needn't torture ourselves about that!   Obedience is what you call it when you do know what's being required of you (would you say we ever do?) and do it.   Neat you should mention of David (2 Sam 24) and Abraham. I am musing about whether David's [experience of] being "told" by God to take a census differed from Abraham's [experience of] being "told" to sacrifice Isaac...   Debbie     ----- Original Message ----- From: Caroline Wong To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13 fg. - Perhaps it's focus is WHO not so much WHAT Thanks Debbie for the clarification. I was going to say that I have nothing against obedience, even costly obedience :-) but I won't have to post that now.   Obedience is complex. Abraham was told by God to sacrifice Isaac and it was good that he obeyed. David was told by God to take a census (1 Sam. 24) and it was bad that he obeyed. Jonah and Paul were coerced into obedience at least once in their life. Most of the time, we just muddle along.   Should Bonhoeffer had involved himself in the plot to kill Hitler? Our judgment is clouded by the fact that the plot failed and Hitler executed a fair number of them and Bonhoeffer ended up in a concentration camp. And what angelic and demonic battles were waged behind the scene while all this was going on? Would timely prayer or action have aided the angels? That is the direction I hope to direct people's thoughts.   Love,   Caroline   ----- Original Message ----- From: Debbie Sawczak To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13 fg. - Perhaps it's focus is WHO not so much WHAT Could it be that Terry and Caroline are talking about different things, both of which are true?   Caroline, I think I understand what you mean, that if we are continually forcing ourselves on an issue and it feels like a burden and there is no joy in doing it, or if we just can't come to the point of "obedience", there is probably something underlying that needs to be resolved. Or else we are placing undue demands on ourselves that are really not from God and have nothing to do with obedience (maybe they're from legalistic friends! :-) ). Or we are not respecting the reality of the journey and are trying to shortcut by leaping ahead to stuff we are not yet mature enough for. Or we're living out of our own strength. Just gritting our teeth and putting our nose to the grindstone won't help. Am I understanding that right? If so, I agree.    But I wonder if Terry may be talking about something different and more healthy. I think it's normal for there to be some struggle to obey a lot of the time, a kind of struggle that is completely transparent, has nothing to do with demons or confusion and just comes from the Old Man stirring again (as referenced in a recent thread involving JD and David, in which they agreed). We may be fully correct about the rut we have been given our way out of, but that don't make it easy to get out. Some of the best joy we experience comes from having gone through that struggle successfully. In finally submitting to the Spirit we are enabled to recognize the grace and strength of Christ in us to carry out what all our own striving cannot accomplish. I am willing to consider "just do it" as shorthand for that.    We have to remember that we are part of the creation; we aren't resurrected yet, and there isn't a part of us that is extricable from our body. He remembers we are dust, and so should we. Some groaning and longing mixed with the joy and peace is unavoidable. But you have often reminded us, Caroline, that if we muck it up again (and again), this doesn't affect the relation in which we stand to God and we don't have to wonder if we have slipped a notch with him or been taken off the honour roll. That's the beauty. (With people, it's another thing!)   Debbie    ----- Original Message ----- From: Caroline Wong To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13 fg. - Perhaps it's focus is WHO not so much WHAT Terry: Jesus asked, "Why do you call me Lord, and do not do as I tell you?" We obey because He is Lord and we are not.  Simple as that.  Though love is the ideal motive, it does not matter  whether you feel like doing it out of love, or fear, or do not feel like doing it at all.  He is not wringing His hands hoping we will someday obey.  He demands obedience, because He deserves obedience.  HE IS LORD!  Caroline: Nothing is simple when it comes to humans and saying it is sweeps a lot of things under the carpet. If someone loves Jesus and wants to do His will but can't it could be a) unresolved sin issues that needs to be confessed. This may even be generational or spousal sins b) spiritual warfare that needs to be confronted. c) misunderstanding of what Jesus really wants and the Spirit is saying stop! d) something else needs to be done first e) woundedness that needs to be healed first. What if someone cheated us financially and we haven't forgiven them? Or what if we grew up poorer than our neighbours? In some people, an inability to tithe may have its roots in that unforgiveness or inability to trust God's care. I'm sure others can think of blocks to obedience. "Just do it" is an awful yoke to place on people's neck. Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden light and that we're to learn from him and he will give us rest. If the yoke is hard and the burden is heavy, we're under the wrong master or we haven't heard his voice instructing us on how to obey. It would also mean giving up on a lot of joy and peace.