Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism 4 dead?

[Dave Hansen]

DAVEH:  While the gospel was delivered once for all, I don't interpret that to mean once AND for all...never needing to be delivered again or your theory the action occurred once and will never occur again.  Not only was the apostasy predicted (2Thes 2:3), but likewise the restoration was prophesied (Mt 17:11 & Acts 3:19-21)  Furthermore, an angel was seen in vision (Rev 14:6) having the everlasting gospel to preach to those on earth....which would hardly be necessary IF it were already here as many assume.   So for these and many other reasons, I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, Perry.     You have suggested that NEW revelation cannot occur.  Why you would believe such is logically unscriptural in my opinion.  Not only do you impose a limit on what God may have done since Bible times and what he may do in the future (what do you think the angel mentioned in Rev 14:6 is going to do with the everlasting gospel message that needs preaching?), Christians who believe as you do have painted themselves into a corner.  God has always revealed himself through his servants, the prophets.  By not allowing him to continue revealing himself, you preclude the necessity of prophets.  It's a small corner, Perry.     As to your claim to DavidM that we (LDS) attempt to ADD TO AND CHANGE "the faith", I believe that traditional Christianity has already beat us to it.  That too was prophesied (Acts 20:29-30).  Not only had it begun in Bible times (Gal 1:6-7), but continued to change as men introduced misleading doctrines not included in the Bible such as infant baptism and the Trinity doctrine.  As I see it, LDS theology has been a process of restoring that which was lost.  Not only is it necessary, but it is Biblically mandated.     As for your below comment about Jude 4, you've misunderstood that as well, Perry....... For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousnesss, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. ........or, in the words of the NASB..... For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. .....Obviously, he was speaking in the present tense back then, rather than foretelling Joseph Smith in the future.  Jude 4 only adds to the mountain of evidence that the apostasy was already happening before the Bible was even written.     So Perry.....While you have suggested Mormons attempt to ADD TO AND CHANGE "the faith", could it be that criticism applies to you? Perry responded to DavidM:   None of this means that personal revelation can't occur, in the sense of revealing scriptural meaning to individuals, and possibly even revealing other things....but no NEW revelation, that is, nothing that contradicts "the faith" (which has been recorded in the New Testament) that was delivered ONCE FOR ALL to the saints. The mormon works fail this particular test because they attempt to ADD TO AND CHANGE "the faith". Charles Perry Locke wrote: Dave,   I think the post you responded to is mine, not Kevin's. Here is Jude 3 in it's entirety from the NASB:   Jude 3: Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.   The NASB gives a clearer rendition of "hapax" (clarifying, not reinterpreting) since "hapax" is an "aorist passive", indicating that the action occurred once and will never occur again. I am not a greek scholar; this description comes from John MacArthur. Also, S. Zodhiates, in "The Complete Word Study Dictionary - New Testament", describes the use of "hapax" in Jude 3, along with other verses, to mean "once for all", that is, it can never occur again. He gives the example that Christ's sacrifice will never occur again.   Jude is essentially describing the closure in the delivery of the faith...that it was complete and over as delivered to the saints. And Jude does not have to have been the last book written in order for this his statement to be correct. He is only announcing that the faith was delivered once for all...not that the saints to whom it was entrusted could no longer write about that faith.   Going one verse futher, Jude describes the likes of Joseph Smith:   Jude 4: For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism 4 dead? Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:48 -0700 DAVEH:   You are losing me on this one, Kevin.  Vs 3 says...... ....y*e should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.* .......in the KJV.  What version are you using to get *once for all*?    Also....do you think there was no further revelation from God after Jude wrote his epistle?  BLAINE: It is ON-GOING REVELATION that Kevin does not believe in.  His theme is, as always, that revelation ceased with the apostles' deaths.  Can you or Kevin furnish me with any scripture that substantiates this false--VERY false--doctrine? Blaine, check out Jude 3. The faith was apparently delivered "once for all". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.