Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

[Dave Hansen]

David Miller wrote: Dave Hansen wrote: To me it remains a no win situation when it is implied that I am a liar for responding to questions about my beliefs. >From my perspective, if a member implies you are a liar for responding to questions about your belief, that member is mistaken. You have made your case, and even if the person you have made your case with does not accept your arguments, don't presume that the rest of us don't. DAVEH:  Yes....I do assume most TTers agree with my critics rather than me.  But I do realize that there are points of discussion that are in agreement with my beliefs and what some (though not all) TTers may believe. It seems to me that you don't want to answer Perry until he acknowledges that you are being honest about your motivations for being here. DAVEH:  What's in it for me, DavidM....a bloody nose???   If somebody is outspokenly opposed to my beliefs, and has made attacking my faith a crusade of sorts....then why would you or anybody else expect me to share more of those beliefs with him if it just agitates him to criticize more?     There is a big cultural difference between us, DavidM.  Your perspective of being a Christian is to stand bold as martyrs of old and defiantly oppose those you perceive are fighting against your Faith.   Perhaps I'm a little too old and a bit too tired, but my LDS culture has conditioned (yuk....I don't think that is the proper word...and, I'm sure some of my critics will pick up on it and toss it back in my face) me to be much more passive in confronting negativity (another poorly used term in this regard).    I would like to think that if Jesus were to ask me to wrestle the devil to the death, I'd not shirk from the duty.  But until I am called to that job, I'm a bit too timid and reluctant to jump into the fray.  I'd rather leave such battles to those who enjoy contests of egos.  In contrast to street preachers, I think Mormons are brought up to be relatively non confrontational.  If you don't want to listen to me....I won't get out a bullhorn and Kevin you to death. I would encourge Perry to acknowledge this, but even if he disagrees with both you and me, wouldn't it be ok to go ahead and answer him and still stick by your position of honesty? DAVEH:  If Perry wants to think I'm dishonest, that's his problem of mistaken discernment.  As you know, I've got a rather thick skin and I'm not going to lose much sleep over it.  But why do you think I should hand him the bullets to fire back at me?  He's pretty well made his anti-Mormon position clear, has he not?  His intent is to denigrate everything related to Mormonism.   That is his privilege.  I just don't want to be his punching bag. One question you might answer that could help resolve this with Perry is, do you ever have any thoughts of possibly converting any of us to Mormonism? DAVEH:  No.  Quite the opposite.  If I were wanting to convert people, TT is the last place I'd make an attempt.      As you know, I've been a missionary for the Church in my younger days.  We were encouraged to avoid argumentative situations....bashing as we called it back then.  I assume LDS missionaries are taught much the same today.  I occasionally go out with the missionaries when I have time, and as far as I can see....they have the same standards as we had way back when.  Like I said....our culture is vastly different than what I see in TT.  And...I realize TT is hardly a typical Christian environment.  Anyway....back to the point....TT is just not the venue where LDS folks would attempt to convert people.      As I see it....TT is a bitterly combative atmosphere that is less than conducive to truth, despite painting its face as such.  Does the Holy Spirit linger in an acrid environment?  Not in my opinion.  And if the Holy Ghost is not present, is truth present?   Just a thought to ponder.... You ought to understand that evangelism is important to many evangelicals. DAVEH:  Sure, I understand that well.  Likewise, the LDS Church is heavily involved in spreading the gospel.  We just do it in vastly different ways.  And....I don't think you are going to find LDS missionaries working TT.     Maybe Blaine is the exception.....are you on a mission to TT, Blaine?   :-) Most non-Mormons on this list probably hope to influence you away from Mormonism, DAVEH:  That is quite obvious.  I find it interesting that when some of them finally realize that I am hopeless (in their eyes), their attitude towards me changes. so it is natural for them to assume that you hope to move some of us toward accepting Mormonism. DAVEH:  People draw incorrect conclusions based on faulty logical all the time.  If they would recognize the cultural differences between their way of religious thinking and that of Mormons, they might not get so uptight when chatting with LDS folks.   That also is why I am so curious about the thinking of street preachers in SLC waving our underwear.....to me it seems like a strange way to engender meaningful dialog with us. Can you be honest about your feelings concerning this with us, DAVEH:  Yes.......I have. or do you never think about your influence upon us in regards to Mormonism? DAVEH:  From my years of being in TT, I have learned a lot about the influence a single Mormon can have on this group.  When I came here, I was more than a little bit naive about how easy it would be for a Mormon to ask questions about Protestantism in a venue created for the purpose of exchanging theological ideas.  I hope you don't think poorly of me for saying this, but I think I now understand religious fanaticism a bit better. I personally suspect this might be a secondary reason you have for being here, DAVEH:  LOL.........I assume you are probing on that one, DavidM.  I have no illusions about converting any TTers to Mormonism.  Nor do I have any desire (contrary to what Mormonism encourages) to do so. and acknowledging such might help Perry relate to you better. DAVEH:  Are you deaf, DavidM!?!?!?!?    Perry does not want to relate to Mormons.  (Hmmmm.....come to think of it, he is already related to a Mormon!     :-)    )     Perry has made it plain that Mormonism is the enemy, and he intends to counter it at every opportunity.  In effect, he is on a crusade in TT against Mormonism.  As I see it, the only way Perry wants to relate to me on TT is to put his cross hairs on my chest and pull the trigger.  Bagging a Mormon would certainly be a feather in his perceived Christian cap, and I'm sure he would feel fulfilled with his accomplishment of converting me away from my LDS based beliefs. On the other hand, if moving us toward Mormonism really never enters your mind, that would be interesting for us to know. DAVEH:  If I were concerned about moving anybody in TT towards Mormonism, I'd leave it.  Both Kevin and Perry would then have little reason (excepting Blaine perhaps) to denigrate LDS theology to the extent they do, as I assume I am the main reason they post what they do in an effort to disparage my beliefs. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.