Dave, it appears that you conveniently chose the similarities to focus on.
Let me mention a few differences.
1. Is you jesus a procreated being from your god and one of his spirit
wives? Not Mine.
2. Is your jesus the brother of Satan? Not mine.
3. Is the father of your jesus flesh and bones? not mine.
4. Was the father of your jesus once a man? Not mine.
5. Did the father of your jesus have a father? Not mine.
6. Id the father of your jesus from Kolob? not mine.
7. Did the father of your jesus have multiple spirit wives? not mine.
8. Are your jesus, and his father, and the holy spirit 3 gods? Not mine.
9. In the mormon paradigm, does virgin mean "young girl", or "never been
with a man"?
10. Where in the Bible does it say god's genetic material ended up in mary?
Where does it even say god HAS genetic material.
Dave, in my opinion (and evidently in the opinoin of many) they are not the
same. You have said it yourself...all false religions contain some of the
truth...mormonism is no exception.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:03:05 -0700
* the onus is on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus.*
DAVEH: Perhaps I should have explained myself a bit better, Perry. What
I was objecting to was your above comment. I don't see where it is
anybody's job to denigrate, berate or disqualify another's belief about
Jesus. Regardless what you may think I believe or not believe about
Jesus....My Jesus is my Savior, just as he is your Savior.
As I see it....you, Kevin, Lance or any other person (Christian or not)
can explain their belief in Jesus as they perceive him. Then I (or
anybody else) can agree that I believe the same way, or not. For
instance....
FWIW....I may be wrong in my assumptions of what you believe about the
following, but follow along to get a feel for what I am trying to say:
1) I assume you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother. I believe the
same.
2) As I understand it, you believe Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost.
I do not. I believe he is literalerally the Son of God, being conceived
of the genetic (if that is the correct term) material of our Heavenly
Father by the power of the Holy Ghost.
3) You believe Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later.
I believe the same.
Now, the above is a somewhat simplistic example, but I think it
illustrates the point. On two of the three points we agree. On one we
disagree. Does that mean that we believe in two totally different Saviors?
Not in my opinion.
You are probably asking what this has to do with the original
discussion. The point I am trying to make is that if you were to single
out my believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God as evidence that I
believe in a different Jesus than you do.....well.....you might have to say
that I believe the Bible too much when I quote a myriad of passages
supporting my perspective view about Jesus. Does the fact that we might
have two different perspectives about Jesus' paternal attributes mean that
we are talking about two different people? If not....then what point is
there in trying to prove what the person believes is wrong. It doesn't
change the fact that we are still talking about Jesus who was born of a
virgin and died on a cross in our behalf.
Now....If you said you believed in the Jesus who died on the cross and
was resurrected, and I said I believed in the Jesus who sold tacos in
Mexico.....then it becomes obvious that we are talking about different;
people. You would not have to prove anything about my Jesus being the
wrong one. There would be nothing in common between them to tie them
together.
Yikes....I think I'm rambling on now. I hope I adequately explained
why I said what I did. If you want clarification, just ask.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Wait a minute! I agree with you and then you tell me I have it
backwards? How does that work?
You said, "Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I
believe in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't believe in
Jesus."
I responded, "I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus,
and the onus is on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus."
And now you say, "You've got that a bit backwards, Perry."
Aren't you in essence, then saying that YOU had it a bit backwards
since I was agreeing with you?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:25:39 -0700
DAVEH: You've got that a bit backwards, Perry. The onus is on you to
prove (explain might be a better word) your Jesus.....I don't recall
seeing much of that on TT.....other than he created the world, was born
of a virgin, died and was resurrected.....all of which I believe. Is
there more you (TTers) want to say about your belief about Jesus?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus, and
** I feel we have done that. Repeatedly. But, you do not accept our
evidence, and I suppose short of having a vision, you never will.
You have not said our Jesus is a false jesus because, since you say
you beleive in the same Jesus we believe in, that would be like shooting
yourself in the foot.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:55:30 -0700
DAVEH: Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I
believe in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't believe
in Jesus. FTR....I have not said that the Jesus Kevin, you Perry or
any other TTer believes in is a false Jesus.
Lance Muir wrote:
DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in Jesus." IFF we are going to engage in
a conversation that entails reality, then we have to continue to build
upon that which has been said previously.According to you THE JESUS TO
BE BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND ACCURATELY DESCRIBED WITHIN MORMON
TEACHING. Is this so? The Jesus believed in by Kevin, Perry, Lance et
al is a false Jesus. Is this not also so? (unwieldy but, you get my
point)What, IYO, are the eternal consequenses for non-Mormons? Mr.
Moderator:Please grant DaveH the opportunity of fully answering and,
explaining.
DAVEH: FTR Kevin, I believe in Jesus. Therefore can we
conclude
that you've made the judgment rather than God?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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