Ahhhh. See, Debbie, what did I tell you? Americans are from the Bigfoot
only crowd :)
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Debbie, suppose that you are blind and laid on the operating table, and a
Sasquatch walked in and you thought it was the surgeon, and you trusted
the
Sasquatch. You would die on the table.
>From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:12:51 -0400
>
>Assuming we have a correct understanding of Jesus and the Mormons don't,
>then if on that basis alone we are saved and they aren't, it is our
>understanding which has saved us. Like Bill (in a recent post), I can't
>hold with that.
>
>But the question was different, it was whether the actual object of my
>faith/belief (putting myself in the place of a Mormon) can still be the
>real Jesus even if I have so much wrong information about him. It
>doesn't
>seem impossible, given analogies one could invent: if I am blind and
think
>the surgeon is a Sasquatch, but I still lie down on the operating table
>with full confidence, am I trusting the surgeon? The quesiont cannot be
>just about what's in our heads and what's out there. With Jesus it is a
>matter of taking active steps, and him doing stuff to us. But is it best
>characterized as a one-shot deal, or a relationship that develops? And
>if
>the latter, then maybe the proper question is, Can this relationship,
this
>interaction be going on and I the Mormon continue to have such wrong
ideas
>about him? I find that harder to say Yes to, but I do not know. If what
we
>others believe about Jesus is true, it seems to me that a genuine
>relationship with the real Person could not evoke less than worship.
>That
>is the stumbling block for me with Mormonism: worship. Can you worship
>without knowing it? (It was only an analogy, but maybe the Christian
>life
>is after all a single loooong surgery, at the end of which I can see,
>and
>realize the surgeon is not a Sasquatch. In due course, everyone will
>worship...)
>
>Lance, it may ultimately be the same question as Why aren't believers'
>lives changed more, if they have the Holy Spirit within them? Why don't
we
>all agree about Scripture if we have the Holy Spirit within us? (I can
>predict some people's answer to this.)
>
>Debbie
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 4:12 PM
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>
>
> > Lance,
> >
> > I agree that "Every christian believer believes 'through' an errant
> > framework". But how errant is too errant? Is there a line that can be
> > drawn? In the end either we are saved or we are not. Was our
> > framework
> > "too" errant? Was our image of Jesus too far from the real Jesus? If
we
> > are "too" errant for salvation, but did not know it, are we saved?
These
> > are mighty questions.
> >
> > To be totally honest, I cannot say with complete certainty that
>mormons
> > are not saved. Maybe their degree of errancy in their image of God
> > and
> > Christ falls within the "saved" camp. However, from what I read in
> > the
> > Bible, I believe that they are on the "too errant" side. That is why
> > I
> > spend the time I do on TT doing what I do. If I did not care I would
be
> > silent. If I thought that they were "in the fold", I would say to
> > them
> > "Welcome, brothers and sisters."
> >
> > Perry
> >
> >>From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Reply-To: [email protected]
> >>To: <[email protected]>
> >>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
> >>Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:28:13 -0400
> >>
> >>Interesting! (there's that word again) Every christian believer
believes
> >>'through' an errant framework. One may believe in a geocentric
universe
>or
> >>a flat earth and, live out a fairly normal life. May one believe
>'through'
> >>a Mormon Jesus (assuming this to be a totally aberrant Jesus) into
Jesus
> >>as He is? I don't know. What think YE Perry?
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Bill Taylor
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Sent: June 26, 2005 15:06
> >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Dave,
> >>
> >> We would probably have to go into some further detail as to what
this
> >> word "salvation" means to us before my answer can suffice -- or
perhaps
> >> even be understood (and that is up to you) -- but the short answer
> >> is
> >> this: "yes, the only requirement for entrance to heaven" is
> >> salvation
>--
> >> with one caveat: in Jesus Christ.
> >>
> >> I believe that at the point in which death entered the world,
>salvation
> >> was necessary in order to receive eternal life. Anyone who is mortal
>and
> >> has died or will die on this earth must necessarily be resurrected
>(which
> >> is the pivotal aspect in my view of "salvation"; i.e., death being
> >> swallowed up in victory) in order to live forever. In this view,
then,
> >> salvation is that which stands between death and an eternal life in
> >> "heaven."
> >>
> >> Bill
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Dave Hansen
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 1:03 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
> >>
> >>
> >> DAVEH: Do you believe salvation is the only requirement for
> >> entrance to heaven, Bill? (BTW....I would be most interested to
hear
> >> the thoughts of other TTers on this as well.)
> >>
> >> Bill Taylor wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A very wise friend of mine is keen on opining that there
> >> will
>be
> >> many Christians who hold grossly heretical beliefs, who upon their
> >> passing will nevertheless find themselves securely in heaven. I
> >> agree
> >> with him: if entrance into heaven is predicated upon right and only
>right
> >> thinking, then I suppose heaven will be a mighty lonely place.
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>Dave Hansen
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>http://www.langlitz.com
> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>If you wish to receive
> >>things I find interesting,
> >>I maintain six email lists...
> >>JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
> >>STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
may
> > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> > http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
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> > have
a
> > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
> >
> >
> >
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
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