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I know what the scriptures below mean and have
personally experienced them Bill. However, I don't see what any of them
have to do with a "dance" per se. Jesus was a "suffering savior" and as
believers we are told that we will have "tribulation" and or "suffering"; I
understand how He is in the Father and the Father in Him and He is in us and we
in Him, that is "If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my father will
love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that
loveth me not keepeth not my sayings and the word which ye hear is not mine, but
the father's which sent me" (John 14:23,24). But the Comforter which is
the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all
things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto
you (Vs.26)
Where do you find the dancing? jt
jt: An indwelling of what? What do you mean an
indwelling and upon what do you base this assumption?
Judy, please read the following verses from
the Gospel of John. Contemplate the words of our Lord, especially those which
are underlined. Perhaps as you ponder them, they will begin to resonate
within you, and you will begin to apprehend and appreciate what I mean when I
speak of the "mutual indwelling." If not, then just say so and we can proceed
from there. Bill
John 1.18 No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has
declared Him.
John 5.17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has
been working until now, and I have been working." 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not
only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making
Himself equal with God.
John 6.46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father,
except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
John 8.16 "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am
not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
John 8.42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you
would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come
of Myself, but He sent Me.
John 10.15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the
Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10.30 "I and My Father are one."
John 10.37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not
believe Me; 38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works,
that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in
Him."
John 13.3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all
things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to
God,
John 14.9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and
yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the
Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe
that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak
to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in
Me does the works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the
Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
John 14.19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no
more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 "At that day
you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in
you.
John 14.26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father
will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your
remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 "Peace I leave with you, My
peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your
heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 "You have heard Me say to you,
'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice
because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
... 15.26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the
Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will
testify of Me.
John 16.26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not
say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 "for the Father Himself
loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth
from God. 28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the
world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
John 17.5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me
together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before
the world was.
John 17.20 "I do not pray for these
alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 "that
they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they
also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "And
the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one
just as We are one: 23 "I in them, and You in Me; that
they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have
sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. 24 "Father, I desire that
they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My
glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of
the world.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:22
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for
the eternal sonship of Christ
Judy
writes > I don't recall ever having made a rule Bill.
The scriptures themselves say that if any man speaks he should speak as
the oracles of God. If you are going to represent Him then you
should say what He says about himself. Your doctrine of
"perichoresis" is alien to anything I have read in scripture.
Where do you find this dance and relationship? The Godhead is one -
so is God dancing with Himself?
No, the "dance" or the "choir" is
descriptive of the inner relations between the Persons of the "Godhead,"
the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. As per OT testimony God is
"one" by way of unity. This has been demonstrated on numerous occasions.
You refuse to consider it.
jt: I find it easier to go with
what God says about Himself than to try and conform Him to the writings of
various and sundry
theologians. You don't
know about the "inner workings" of the Godhead and neither did Athanasius
or Gregory of Nyzantius.
By the way, if in your view of the
Godhead there are no inner relations, how then is "symphony" an apt
description of it? That is, if "God is one" to the exclusion of a mutual
indwelling, how can he be acting in "harmony" like a "symphony"? You are
not even consistent with your own "object lesson," Judy. Why be so
critical of mine? "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse
the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean
also." Check out these definitions:
jt: They work as one - like a
human body. How would it be if my head had to be in relationship
with my heart and that with my digestive system. It all works as one
when one is healthy. When cells begin to do their own thing it means
trouble.
Symphony: from Greek sumph ni , from sumphnos, harmonious: sun-, syn- + phn , sound.
Harmony: Simultaneous
combination of notes in a chord; a combination of
sounds considered pleasing to the ear.
Harmonious: Exhibiting
accord in feeling or action; having component
elements pleasingly or appropriately combined: a
harmonious blend of architectural styles. Characterized by harmony
of sound; melodious; exhibiting equivalence or
correspondence among constituents of an entity or between different
entities; symmetrical; existing together in harmony;
"harmonious family relationships."
jt: Bill please forget the
symphony - I regret having said anything, it is getting way to
complicated.
You continue to uphold your
"symphony" description, but you criticize my use of perichoresis to
speak of the same inner relations (which by my view is an actual
indwelling). This is a double standard, Judy. IF you refuse to see
it, then so be it.
jt: An indwelling of what? What do you mean
an indwelling and upon what do you base this assumption?
Till next time, Bill
Judy writes > Yes, Nathan
was the prophet and his words were inspired by God since this was the
anointing for his ministry - fourfold restitution was what is required
under the law of Moses. So what
is the problem Bill? . . .
BT > The
problem is, Judy, you have evidently missed the point.
Without some "non-biblical" input to place my answer in context,
you misunderstood my use of Scripture to say to you what
"God says using God's words." No problem, I will add some commentary
of my own to try to help you with the context.
jt: No
Bill the problem is yours. God is not saying these words to me.
You are saying them and this is your judgment, not
His.
You are guilty of doing
the very thing you expect others not to do.
jt: Oh
really? So now I am an adulterer and a murderer like David? Well
when I will wait for God to send the prophet Nathan to speak the
truth to me. Let's face it Bill. I am no king and you are
no prophet.
The pertinent statement
in my use of the Nathan/David account was this: "You are the man!"
Yes, David could have had Nathan killed -- but he didn't.
Instead, not playing insinsate, he got the point of Nathan's parable
and repented of his wrong doing; that is, he was quilty as charged; he
knew it; and rather than skirt the issue, he took
responsibility for his actions.
How does this pertain
to you? You have yet to take responsibility for
yours. Concerning the use of non-biblical terminology to speak
to biblical concepts, you make the following claim: "You may all
do this Bill but one speaking as the 'oracles of God' says what God
says using God's Words . . . Reaping what we sow is God's righteous
judgment."
Judy, you are complicit in doing the same thing;
e.g., you have written concerning the Godhead, "They were one in all
aspects and operated like a symphony," and "I would demonstrate the
Godhead this way: God the Father has the thought; God the Word speaks
it into existence; and God the Spirit carries it out. So you see the
Godhead as one working in harmony, like a symphony."
jt: Jesus
said "I and the Father are one and it is written that he was given the
spirit without measure" I used the word symphony as an object lesson
since this is the way it appears to me. I am not writing legalese or
doctrine which you seem to interpret it as - nor do I come to TT as a
"teacher" professer. I am an ordinary every day believer sharing who I
am in Christ. For this I take responsibility - but not for your wild
flights of fancy Bill.
Debbie wrote this
to you: "When talking about God or what he is saying to
us in the Bible, I am sure I use terms which are not in any
translation or manuscript of Scripture." As do you, Judy, as
witnessed above. Hence, with her, why do you not also "find
it strange and arbitrary to make a rule of avoiding
doing so"? You do not
apply your own rules to yourself.
jt: I
don't recall ever having made a rule Bill. The scriptures
themselves say that if any man speaks he should speak as the oracles
of God. If you are going to represent Him then you should say
what He says about himself. Your doctrine of
"perichoresis" is alien to anything I have read in
scripture. Where do you find this dance and relationship?
The Godhead is one - so is God dancing with
Himself?
And as I said before, nor ought
you have to. The problem here is not with the language you
use; it is with your unreasonable expectation concerning the language
of others, whether it be mine or Debbie's or anyone
else's. In other words, you need to change your
standards. They are untenable -- not
even you can meet them.
jt: It is
God's standard for those who claim to represent Him publicly.
What I am doing here is my own private testimony. You are
constantly quoting doctrines and teachings constructed by men that
have little to do with what God says about Himself and when
anyone questions them it makes you angry.
And so, the question is, are you going to continue to
skirt the issue, or are you going to drop the attack on others, take
responsibility for your actions and change your standards?
jt: The
attack is all in your head Bill. Noone is immune to questioning on
this list - you should know that by now and if what you are holding on
to is truth then you don't need to fear, it will
stand.
Bill
(By the way, DaveH and G: I am preparing responses to
your requests. I will get them out when this conflict is resolved --
if, that is, it can be resolved)
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