Re: [TruthTalk] A Discussion About Jesus

[Dave]

David Miller wrote: DaveH wrote: I believe he was created by his Father in Heaven....Jesus being the firstborn of the spiritual offspring. I hope you know that such a view creates huge problems for some of us. For us, it makes Jesus ontologically somebody else. The purpose of the Trinity is to explain how Jesus could be another person, yet also BE GOD, not just in purpose of unity, but ontologically. Do you understand this? DAVEH:  I think so.  But why do you feel compelled to cling to the T-Doctrine to explain it?  If you were to accept a pre-mortal existence for all who come to earth, would it not more fully explain why Jesus is the firstborn, and why we are literally the offspring of our Heavenly Father? When I speak of Jesus being my brother, it is because of the incarnation. In other words, he was not my brother prior to being born of Mary and being made the Son of God in the flesh. He humbled himself and became my brother at that point in time. DAVE:  So as I understand this, you do not believe in the literal brotherhood of Jesus, nor do you believe we are the literal offspring of our Heavenly Father. Prior to that point in time, if one could consider my existence prior to it actually taking place, Jesus was my Creator, my God, my eternal Father. Now becoming man, this did not change him in such a way as to take away his relationship to me as my Creator, God, and eternal Father, but it did add somewhat to our relationship. Now I also see him also as the Son of Man, the Son of God, the Christ, the Messiah, the Annointed, my elder brother, the firstborn of every creature, etc. DAVEH:   I am assuming that you believe all those attributes occurred after the incarnation, and were not applicable before.....is that correct?  Do you believe Jesus is eternal, yet those attributes are not eternal?  (I'm trying to put this in perspective of the definition of eternal discussion I'm currently having with Lance....perhaps I should ask you whether you believe eternal can have a beginning?) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.