Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:32:58 -0700

Had a long witness with some "devout" Roman Catholics tonight.
 
Here are a few quotes
I was born again at the age of one when I was baptized
I am going to heaven because I am good
Born again? What does that mean?
I can do whatever I want, I will go to confession.
I pray to Mary
I pray to my friend that committed suicide
God will forgive everybody
 
Are you ONE with this crowd?

Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
articulate and devout Catholic
 
Do you mean one who can?
One who is adept in the use of Feigned words? 2 Pt 2:3

Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.



Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
the communion of the saints, for starters. But right now my brain is too taxed with too many other things to go into detail and I'm already spending too much time on the list. There is potentially a huge amount of material. If that looks to you like ducking, so be it. In the meantime you might find an articulate and devout Catholic in your neighbourhood, learn to love and respect him/her, and spend a few years in humble conversation. By the sounds of it, though, you are also already too busy. I have not forgotten about the girls you are raising--enjoy the games!
 
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

The point is that there are many true believers there, in fact there are aspects of the gospel which they actually grasp and celebrate and practise better than other Christians. And most evangelicals (including those evangelicals who have been Catholics themselves), misunderstand many Catholic teachings and traditions.
 
Care to offer specific examples?

Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Also, Izzy, there are traditions beyond whether you use a guitar or an organ or whether the announcements come before or after the offering or how many times you have communion. There are also traditions like always supporting a particular political party or ideology, using or avoiding a particular translation of the Bible, and unwritten rules about personal behaviour--even the tradition of assuming that the next Catholic you meet is an unbeliever.
 
With regard to your post earlier today, the Catholic church does continue to change and grow in many places. Its submission to Scripture has greatly improved since the Middle Ages. There's no question that there have been and still are abuses, even officially sanctioned by that church There are also many departures among the laity from correct official teaching. So I am not suggesting that your experience of the Catholic church is an invention, just that it is not nearly the whole story. The Catholic church is hugely diverse. The point is that there are many true believers there, in fact there are aspects of the gospel which they actually grasp and celebrate and practise better than other Christians. And most evangelicals (including those evangelicals who have been Catholics themselves), misunderstand many Catholic teachings and traditions. Finally, there are abuses in most churches, we just don't recognize them because they're ours; in the evangelical community also, there is traditional thinking which we won't allow Scripture to correct. So we must be careful about writing off whole sectors of the Christian community. We must also beware of thinking that correct understanding is what saves people.
 
Debbie
    
----- Original Message -----
From: Lance Muir
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

NO CHURCH, NOT EVEN A HOUSE CHURCH, DAVID/IZ, CAN AVOID TRADITIONS LIKE THE PLAGUE. Where the two of you meet to worship, teach, learn etc. is replete with tradition. If it is not today then, it will be tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
 
I say again that the Spirit of God is very much present within the RCC. The Spirit is also present at the Vatican.
 
 
 
---- Original Message -----
Sent: July 06, 2005 17:58
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

The “baggage” is all RCC, my dear.  Definitely there are traditions which overrule scripture in other churches as well, though not as many or piled as deep. The consequence being that I’m total non-denominational.  Our church avoids “traditions” like the proverbial “plague”.  If it starts feeling like something “we’ve always done that way” we change it!  I’m actually not against traditions, which can be good at times.  I only object to traditions that become false doctrine by contradicting clear scriptural teaching.  iz

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

 

Thank you, my dear, you have just confirmed all the baggage I said you were attaching to the word, and have also (at the very end) answered my question with what can be pretty easily construed as a NO.

 

BTW, I have had a completely different experience of the Catholic church, its tradition and liturgy.  

 

Do you think there are any "traditions" (in your sense) or idols or other clutter obscuring the view in our Bible-believing churches/congregations? Do you think there might be some you aren't aware of? What will be the consequence? Not a rhetorical or loaded question, I ask sincerely.

 

Debbie

 

  

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 5:06 PM

Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

 

Debbie, having come out of a RCC family background, you can’t distract me with switching word meanings.  I happen to know that in the RCC “Tradition” (with a capital T) carries much more weight than scripture.  I have been told so by the powers that be more than once. I even had one hard-core relative shove the Bible in my face and scream, “See this book? It means NOTHING!  Got that NOTHING!!!!”   Adultery, drunkenness, and lying were standard fare as long as you went to confession once in a while and did your “penance” (talk about works-salavationists!).  It’s amazing that I ever had a burning desire to know God, as I absolutely hated the “Mass” (ie: re-crucifixion of Christ to draw a crowd), and all the smoke and bells and robes and darkness and rules and bowing and chanting, and Latin mumbo-jumbo.  Talk about a voodoo ritual! It was haunting to a little girl who could remember once being in a sweet little country church with her Grandmother. 

 

Therefore, when scripture says we are to have no idols before God, that is overruled by the Tradition which says to bow to statutes and pray to Mary and the “Saints”, using “holy” water, beads, relics, etc.  Or when scripture says that the overseer of a church is to be the husband of one wife, RCC Tradition says it is much better that he be celibate.  Or when scripture says we are all saints and priests, the RCC Tradition says we need “Priests” to intercede for us, and only the “Church Catholic” decides who is “canonized”.  I could go on and on, but you get the drift.  That is why the RCC is absolute anathema to me as a Bible Believer.  I realize that you can’t have both.  I pity those who have been indoctrinated by it without ever getting a glimpse of the real thing.  Iz

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

 

MAN you guys get distracted by your own baggage attached to words! Certain words to you are just like red flags to a bull, regardless of what they mean in the context. (It reminds me of my 10-year-old son, who cannot abide the number 55.) OK, instead of saying "part of the Christian tradition", how about we say "part of the Christian community"? But we have already heard the answer, I think. The entire RCC is outside the fold, and any sheep who don't get out of there will find themselves on the way up the ramp to the abattoir. I get it. 

 

Debbie

  

----- Original Message -----

From: Judy Taylor

Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:46 PM

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

 

Exactly!  This is why we can never discuss the important things and why there is no appetite for God's Word

Not any that is apparent to me anyway.  jt.

 

On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:31:48 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Lance, who cares about tradition???  Iz

 

Mark 7:5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

   6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

   7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

   8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

   9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

   10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

   11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

   12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

   13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

 

I'm genuinely confused here, Terry. Do I understand you, Judy, Kevin and David Miller to be saying that the RCC is NOT part (a large part) of the Christian Tradition?

 

IMO, if you are then, you are all wrong. I'd go further and, say that you are all wrong in eyes of God. The Spirit of God, IMO, is very much at work in the RCC. 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: July 06, 2005 13:34

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] All believers are ONE IN CHRIST

 

Lance Muir wrote:

Up to now we have two who offer a resounding NO. I've not heard from Judy on this as yet.

 

So then, what is being said is something like the following: "Even if the Lord Himself has embraced someone, should that someone be engaged is worshipping Him within a tradition (RCC & one might insert other 'unacceptable' traditions alongside this one) I (insert your name at this juncture - Terry, Kevin) will not accept them as a sister/brother thus, ONE IN CHRIST with myself."  

==================================================================
The only one I see saying the above is you, Lance.  Idolatry is not a tradition.

 

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