BT: Izzy, maybe you can help me out
here, but it seems to me that your eyes would need to have been opened prior
to this "born again" experience (that moment when you put your faith in
Jesus Christ) or you never would have had the ability to even have
the desire to be receptive to the things of God. Do you understand what
I'm saying and can you help me out here?
Iz:
Well, Bill, maybe it was kind of like when you married your wife.
First you fell in love. And then you joined each other in
matrimony. The marriage part is like when you got born again and
became one. There
was a precursor, but it wasn't consummated until you were one spirit so to
speak.
I was alive when I fell in
love with my future bride. And I make no bones about it. You, on the other
hand, in order to be consistent, would have to argue that you were dead when
you fell in love with your future husband. Hmmmm. I wonder what he saw in
you :>)
BT: Paul tells
us that Christ re-gathered all things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all
things have their being or ontological There you go
using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said
something the other day in reference to our ontological status in
Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking
about. I used the term here to give that first statement some
context. Yes, we sometimes use non-biblical terms to
speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My
gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when
they do it.
Iz:
I find that interesting, Bill, since this whole discussion got started
because you objected to those of us who were using the term "spiritual"
in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical
term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also,
use "nonbiblical" terms all the time.
Right?
You'd better check your
records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had
been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's
doctrine of spiritual death. I had been accused of "touting" Barth
and Torrance, and I was simply pointing out that it was not just the
"libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had
a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about
biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I
denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same
post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my
appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of
my beliefs -- which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this
thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had
attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming instead that he was not
the one who came up with "spiritual death"; that it "is right there in
Genesis." Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere.
On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same
Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different
way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if
you like, but it won't make much of a splash on my end of the pool,
'cause I'm not the hypocrite on this
one.
(? Am I looking at
the ontological me in the mirror, or at Izzys decaying physical body? Do
people get cosmetic surgery for ontological
bodies? Meanwhile
my body gets a day older every day, and a day closer to the grave. But my
spirit is renewed and growing every day. Thats why Ill be happy to
trade in the old model of my body for a new/improved version!) Yeah, I hear you there. I do hope God doesn't want
any brickin' done when I get to heaven though. And don't say he'll probably
stick me in the furnace! :>) I laid brick in Minnesota one winter,
replacing burned-out walls inside of taconite furnaces. If I stood in
one place too long, my boots would start on fire. Too hot for
me!!
Iz:
I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing
with me that our physical bodies really are dying,
Yes.
and
you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with
Christ at the moment? Izzy
Well, if I understand what you are getting at,
this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your
being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real
and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of
yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone
else have this power. All existence is in Christ
Jesus. It is
in him that the real you exists.
Bill
