Debbie wrote: > So far I think I understand that you believe the spirit > of a human being to be pure and willing to do what is > right, as opposed to the flesh, which thwarts it.
I believe this is true of the person who has believed upon Christ and received the Holy Spirit. He cleans our spirit and only a clean spirit can fellowship with the Holy Spirit of God. Debbie wrote: > Above you identify the heart with the spirit. Isn't > it the heart that, according to Jeremiah, is desperately > wicked (KJV), a view that I think I find elsewhere in > Scripture as well? Am I misunderstanding you? Or would > you say that each person's spirit starts out good but typically > gets progressively corrupted by giving in to the flesh? The latter statement is closer to my perspective. While I believe in a concept of original sin, I do not believe in total depravity. I think we need to distinguish between moral depravity and physical depravity. Moral depravity concerns the heart and spirit, whereas physical depravity concerns the flesh. Men are born physically depraved, but not morally depraved. Moral depravity onsets when sinful deeds are done. Men and women are pushed toward this by their physical depravity (i.e., the flesh) at a very early age. At the same time, while I do not believe children are born morally depraved, I do believe they are born spiritually blind. Therefore, while their spirits might not be defiled just yet, they have no ability to fully embrace God in spirit and, therefore, tend to follow the sinful flesh instead, which ends up defiling their spirits and making it sinful as well. Tertullian was the one who first used the term "original sin." He spoke of the soul being in a partially depraved condition and that the soul was inherited from Adam. I think his perspective of "soul" is similar to my perspective of "flesh." I think his lack of understanding the physical basis of behavior through DNA caused him to call it soul. In any case, if you have read him, you might remember his speaking of how the soul has both good and bad, that the best man has some bad and the worst man has some good. This is they way he spoke about depravity of the soul, not being total, but being partial. He spoke of it like a light that is shined through a semi-opaque glass. Although I have differences with him about the terms and the idea of inheritance of soul, I think his overall observations are very honest and true and they parallel my perspective except not in the detail with which I would consider the aspect of the flesh, seeing the flesh as what we inherit from Adam and not the soul. Jesus speaks of that which comes out of the heart of man as being that which defiles him. He speaks of things like fornication being in the heart of the man. Well, originally, fornication is something motivated by the flesh, not the spirit. We also recognize this to be a desire of the flesh after the onset of puberty, though prepubescent children might imitate culture and defile their spirits through the work of evil spirits. Considering the normal situation of someone awakening to the desires of their flesh in this regard, the one who gives himself over to the lusts of his flesh will defile his spirit by it. The desire of fornication becomes not just a desire of the flesh, but also a desire of his heart. Jesus said that whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. He is describing how a person defiles his heart, by yielding to a temptation of his flesh to look and lust. Fornication is a desire of the flesh, but it defiles the heart when the heart yields to it, which then causes the person to speak and act in wicked ways. At this point, the person is both morally depraved and physically depraved. I would say that he is totally depraved, but I do not believe that people are born in this state of total depravity. This is why our conscience speaks to us of the innocence of children. It is why we cherish their innocence. When we experience being born from above in Christ, several things happen. First, our spirit gains access to seeing things that it could not see before. Secondly, our spirits are cleansed of defilement. This is what we mean by saying that we are holy. The word "saint" means "holy one." Eventually we expect our flesh to be redeemed, but that does not happen until the resurrection. Therefore, considering the example of fornication above, our spirits are cleansed of such desires, but our flesh might still be a source of temptation for us. If we were to yield to that desire and commit fornication, we would defile our spirits even though we had previously experienced cleansing. Anyway... I hope you get a better picture of my perspective from this. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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