On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:20:51 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
First of all, Judy does not argue for the inheritance of a sinful nature but for an inheritance of sin.Jt: Wrong JD, as I've noted in the past you either don't listen or if you do you don't comprehend because your doctrine has you blindsided. What Judy argues for is a changed nature. A&E went from being innocent and holy, the image of their heavenly father to the image of a father who was earthly, sensual, and devilish and the change began when spiritual death entered that very day.Good try Judy. Are you telling me that you have never argued for the inheritance of sin, that sin is not passed down from one generation to another? Is that, now, your position? I can't keep up. What is it. Do we bear Adam's sin or not? Why do you so often quote David's lament, "in sin was I born" ???jt: We do not inherit individual sin(s) JD, we choose those personally; what we inherit is a human nature as per Ephesians 2 - "one that is DEAD in trespasses and sins walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who works in the sons of disobedience; walking in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind and are BY NATURE children of wrath."Secondly, Adam's nature did not change with the eating of the fruit or he could not have sinned to begin with. Choice does not exist apart from the ability to make the wrong choice.jt: Adam knew God had forbidden eating from that particular tree. He was NOT deceived so for him it was wilfull sin. So our inheritance in the first Adam is a fallen nature along with a heart that wilfully sins against God.Anyone can say anything when scripture is not demanded.jt: What are you talking about JD, there is plenty of scripture showing that Adam chose without being deceived; why would you think he did not have the ability to make a wrong choice?He was created with the propensity for falling away. It was not the tree "of good and evil" but the tree "of the knowledge of good and evil." Big difference. Why did they (A & E) hide in the bushes after the sin? Guilt !! They had received the knowing of their sin.jt: What is the "big difference" JD since you appear to know about these things. When God said not to eat from it was He just holding out on them/us because it's really good?You do not see a difference between "good and evil" and the knowing of good and evil. My grandchildren do good and evil from the get go. They will not have the "knowledge" of good and evil until they are older.jt: My goodness, God must be naive then. Why would he give Adam a dominion mandate if he wasnot further along than your grandchildren? And how could Adam name all of the animals, birds, etc. being no smarter than your grandchildren? Amazing!!It is through Law that we come to know sin (Ro 7:7). Just as assuredly as covetousness existed before the law, so does sin -- but it cannot be so identified apart from law. There is no accountability apart from law.jt: Death reigned from Adam to Moses before there was any law. How can you deny accountability. People were dying weren't they? God destroyed all but 8 people because of sin. I call judgment - holding them accountable.Are you telling me there was no sin between Adam and Moses?jt: No I am telling you there was death reigning which means there was sin and it was beingconsistently judged with it's penalty which is death.Since no one on this forum believes in universalism, I can say without fear of contradiction that Christ's benefit is not realized apart from our partnership. Neither is Adam's benefit realized apart from our partnership. Ro 5:12 is a predictive certainty !! WE DIE BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE SINNED.jt: Without the cross we would die anyway - whether or not we had personally sinned - but we would have because it is just doing what comes naturally and it is natural for sinners to sin.The cross absolves no one from physical death. We each bear responsibility for this.jt: Because of the cross we are once more able to gain access to the "tree of Life" JD.And this is not the first time Paul has made this point in this letter ..... "....... all have sinned and continue to fall short of His glory .." (Ro 2:23).jt: Why JD are you trying to make all scripture conform to your idea of the book of Romans rather than ask God to help you to understand Romans in light of the rest of scripture?Why do you assume this to be true? It is not and persistence in this thinking would be a lie.jt: Because you hang everything on Romans 5:12 and Romans 6:14 to the exclusion of other scripture such as Romans 6:14. You stretch grace all out of shape and decry obedience calling it legalismWhen you argue for "sinful nature" in 5:12, you change the very wording of the passage. You have taken mankind's failure out of the equation and inserted his potential for failure. Verse 12 is not saying that we die because we share the same potential for sin. Rather, with predictive certainty, Paul declares that we die because we have all have done the very same thing -- we have sinned.jt: No God said that in Genesis when He cursed the man and woman along with the creation. We are procreated JD. We don't just pop out of an isolated egg in a vacuum.Keep ignoring Ro 5:12 . Fine with me.jt: Romans 5:12 is what I am talking about ie "Through one man sin entered the world and death through sin ... I'm not saying that all don't sin but they are going to die anyway because the creationis cursed because of Adam.Adam was not an eternal being before sin and mortal afterwards!! If that were so, there would have been no need for the Tree of Life. Man needs a life source !!jt: Adam would have been eternal had he stuck with the right tree. Death entered his being when he made the wrong choice and disobeyed God. He was being tested - just as we are tested constantly.Yes. But he was not created as an eternal being. He needed the Tree of Life. Why else was it created. Only as a reason for driving him out of the garden? He ate that fruit to stay alive !!!jt: So now your doctrine says that God created mankind in His Image to die when He (God) is the source of Life. Talk about strange and weird. The prince of death is not God JD.He was created this way and remains so. The Garden was never the goal of man's creation or God would have preserved the Garden or promised its return. Man was not just driven from the Garden, he was excluded from the Tree of Life. In fact, it is not because of sin that he was driven from the Garden. It was because of the concern of God that man continue to live (forever) after receiving the knowing of good and evil. The guarding angel did not prevent entry into the Garden, rather he prevented access to the Tree of Life.jt: Are you saying that A&E could have gone back into the garden after they were expelled JD? The tree of Life represents eternal life and the other tree represents eternal death. It's just best not to know some things if you are not God.Of course I am saying this. God put the angel as a guardian -- so they would not return, eat of the fruit (continually eat of the fruit)> Read the text in Gen 3.jt: I read that they were run out of the garden and the angel was stationed there to guard it so there was no going back. Man was now to live by the sweat of his brow and the earth would produce thornsand thistles.Christ is our life. THAT has been the plan from the very beginning.jt: Yeah! Well Christ IS the tree of Life and He has been there from the beginning.If the Tree of Life wasn't really a tree, was the Garden of Eden really a garden? Were Adam and Eve really human?JD: Tree is a metaphor JD; they are two kinds of wisdom. God's wisdom is a tree of life and God's wisdom is Christ. If you want to stay with the apples that's where a lot of people are at.. and yesA&E were really human, we are their progeny.Creation is not a completed reality apart from the inclusion of Jesus. Christ is not the solution to a problem so much as He is the conclusion of the work of creation. Just as creation on one day was continued into the workings of another day, so the creation of man is fulfilled in another time - with Jesus. In Christ, it is not that we live again but that we never die.jt: He is the CREATOR JD, so how do you figure the above. You sure make things complicated?You deny that Christ is the end of the work of God within us ???!!!jt: Christ is everything we need for life and godliness. Paul said he willingly gave up everything to apprehend Christ.If we disagree concerning the story of beginnings, we will not understand Paul's theological inclusion of Adam in the same light. Adam was the door. Sin passed through that door onto all of mankind because all of mankind stood on common ground with Adam -- all sinned. There is none who can declare righteousness AND -- we have none to blame but ourselves. Not Adam. Not the serpent. Only ourselves. Death passed onto me because I sinned. JDYou were born into this world a sinner JD - and what else does one expect from a sinner - the fruit of his life is sin...Wait ??!! I thought I was born only with a sinful nature - not born with sin. Which is it, Judy???jt: How do you separate them JD. When you entertain an evil thought emanating from your darkened heart - does this make you a sinner?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:37:47 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus
Judy wrote: >> We are all fallen because Adam fell and this is why >> death reigned and why we are so in need of a >> daysman redeemer. John wrote: > You continue to ignore Ro 5:12 which plainly > contradicts your theory. Why? Romans 5:12 does not contradict her. It says: Romans 5:12 (12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: He plainly says that sin entered this world by one man, Adam. When he says, "for that all have sinned," he is giving evidence for how we know that sin is inherited from Adam. The fact that everyone sins is very strong evidence that we have all inherited a nature bent on sinning. Read four verses later, and you see how he says, "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one..." This indicates death being something we inherited from Adam. Romans 5:17 (17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Two verses later, he says again, "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..." Romans 5:19 (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Therefore, we inherited both death and sin from the first man Adam. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
