You bring too much traditional bias to the table, my friend ............... and as good a piece as you have written since I have been on this forum, I might add.
I say "too much bias" because you assume some motive on my part that is not a part of my thinking.
First, we -- you and I --- apparently have different ideas about the family get together thingy. All of the kids would be invited, (and we have 7 with 11 grandchildren ). If one is a pain in the batut, tough beans. Secondly, no one is responsible for me going to hell except me. There is an influence (as in "yeast") that works against good -- but the troubled sibling would still be invited to the party because there is an equal influence for the good !!!!
Secondly, and I knew that Judy was not going to answer this question --- the grandson is always a member of the family. Once a member, always a member. Once a son, always a son.
As I see it, salvation has two concerns -- salvation from the curse of the law and salvation from our destructive lifestyles. I am fully and completely saved , in the first instance, by Another. Christ does it all. I am declared fully sanctified, holy and blameless IN AN INSTANT. No growth required.
I was saved.
A second consideration is the salvation found in the process of maturity. The old man versus the new man (Eph 4:20-24). The one decreases while the other increases. A process. Maturity. Caused and supervised by the Holy Spirit of God in Christ in us.
We are being saved.
Heaven and hell are extensions of what we are. Heaven is the reasonable conclusion to a life lived in increasing harmony with God -- and all that this means (including obedience) Obedience, in this thinking, provides for growth and is an extension of that growth. Heaven is the reward (we will be saved) because heaven is the reasonable conclusion to such a life.
Hell, whether eternal punishment or instant consumption (death) is the end of the matter, the reasonable conclusion of a life lived in deliberate and total rebellion (as described in Ro 1:18 ff). Those who are unbelieving are "dead already." No surprises on Judgment Day. Those who look to others, lived outside themselves, have such a life available to them in heaven. Those, on the other hand, who lived out their self-destructive ways bring death to the transformed body and soul. It is a fitting conclusion to a life of Krap.
Anyway -- it is not about once saved, always save. It is about family. The Heaven Father sent His eternal Son to die for us all -- proving that He is the Father of all. The reconciliation of all things has been completed in the body of His flesh at His death (Col 1:20ff).
II Thess 3:14-15 has Paul saying "... do not associate with one who does not follow what we have written in this letter BUT do not regard him as an enemy; rather, entreat him as a brother." He might be screwing up, but he is always a brother. God will decide the saved part.
Jd
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Clifton <wabbits1234@earthlink.net>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:55:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The TEXT will never be uniformily apprehended!!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You ask this question as if there were only one grandchild, John, trying to show that God would never cast out His grandson, no matter how disobedient. Let's change the picture just a little. Let us say that there are fifty grandchildren that the grandfather loves. Forty-nine are hard working industrious lovable grandchildren who love and adore ol'Papa and one is known far and wide, not by his given name, but as "That lyin', thieving, low down SOB that hates his Papa and everyone else."
Now comes a family event of some sort. Let us say a wedding feast. You can invite forty- nine grandchildren to the feast and everyone there will have a good time for all the time they are there. Or, you can invite fifty and let ever yone have a miserable time. What would ol'gramps do?
Worse yet. Say your forty-nine grandkids are sweet innocent kids and that fiftieth is going to lead them all to Hell, ( the old one bad apple spoils the whole barrel thing.) Do you cling to the rotten apple, or throw it out?
I vote for casting out. I think that God does too. Why, you ask? Because He cast Adam out of the garden for one lousy sin and He cast Satan out of Heaven for the same reason. Deliberate sin is rebellion. It cost thousands their lives in Sodom. It cost millions their lives in the flood, and if you turn from God to deliberate sin, you are no better than those in Sodom and deserve the same treatment.
The only arguments against this thinking is that once saved, always saved thing that some talk about, presuming to have God's name on an unbreakable contract that allows yo u to do what you want after being baptized, and the pitiful argument that God is too loving to send people to Hell. Neither of which work for me.
I realize that I have not answered your question. I do not know at what point God may remove your name from the book, but God does know, and He will.
Terry
==================================================================At what point do you all consider your grandchild to be something other than a family member -- during his times of discipline? When he is disobedient but not caught, yet? When he starts smoking or when he challenges going to church? Obedience/disobedience has to do with how we live our lives and nothing to do with our adoptive circumstance.Jd
You ask this question as if there were only one grandchild, John, trying to show that God would never cast out His grandson, no matter how disobedient. Let's change the picture just a little. Let us say that there are fifty grandchildren that the grandfather loves. Forty-nine are hard working industrious lovable grandchildren who love and adore ol'Papa and one is known far and wide, not by his given name, but as "That lyin', thieving, low down SOB that hates his Papa and everyone else."
Now comes a family event of some sort. Let us say a wedding feast. You can invite forty- nine grandchildren to the feast and everyone there will have a good time for all the time they are there. Or, you can invite fifty and let ever yone have a miserable time. What would ol'gramps do?
Worse yet. Say your forty-nine grandkids are sweet innocent kids and that fiftieth is going to lead them all to Hell, ( the old one bad apple spoils the whole barrel thing.) Do you cling to the rotten apple, or throw it out?
I vote for casting out. I think that God does too. Why, you ask? Because He cast Adam out of the garden for one lousy sin and He cast Satan out of Heaven for the same reason. Deliberate sin is rebellion. It cost thousands their lives in Sodom. It cost millions their lives in the flood, and if you turn from God to deliberate sin, you are no better than those in Sodom and deserve the same treatment.
The only arguments against this thinking is that once saved, always saved thing that some talk about, presuming to have God's name on an unbreakable contract that allows yo u to do what you want after being baptized, and the pitiful argument that God is too loving to send people to Hell. Neither of which work for me.
I realize that I have not answered your question. I do not know at what point God may remove your name from the book, but God does know, and He will.
Terry
