I have highlighted something you said, Terry, that is of great
importance to me. DaveH recently spoke of Christ
being his redeemer and Savior. I make the same claim. IN THAT
DECLARATION, he and I are brothers. We do not express that claim
in the same ways -- but the claim is the same. And JESUS
is the Savior, not the church, or the
preacher, or the prophet of God. It is before his own Master that he stands or falls,
and he will be made to stand !!!! (Ro 14:4). Is he or other
claimants saved? I don't know. But I do know that Rom
ans 14:4 should have something
to say in that discussion. I do know, that the words "God works all
things for good to them who love the Lord and ....." probably
includes things that have to do with my salvation. He takes the wrong
I do, does not bring it into account, and [thus] works a good that
benefits me eternally.
Up to a
point, I am in agreement with you, Dave. When John wrote of Jesus, he
recorded something very interesting that we find in chapter five, about
the middle of verse twenty-eight.."the hour is coming in which all who
are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who
have
done good to the resurrection of life, and those
who have done
evil to the resurrection of condemnation."
Jesus was stating that He had the authority not only to raise the
dead, but also to judge them, sending some to Hell and inviting others
to live eternally with Him. From other things that He said in other
scriptures, we know that these are not the only things taken into
consideration. You can do all the good works you can do, for as long
as you can do them, and still go to Hell if your faith is not in Christ
as your Savior. Evidently one can also claim to be a follower of
Christ but the evil pattern of one's life makes a lie o
f one's claim and that person is also condemned to Hell. Those who
deny self, follow Christ, shun evil and do good get the reward.
Mother Teresa, it was reported at one time, was not sure of her
salvation. How true that is I do not know. If she did her works out
of love for her Savior and her fellow man, she most certainly will be
closer to the throne than me, but if she did these works hoping they
would save her, she is begging for a drop of water at this moment and
will be forever. I strongly feel that she did her works out of love,
but like you, I am in no position to judge. We are clearly taught that
we are not to judge another's works. Jesus will handle that without
our help, and that is a good thing.
I have an opinion about everyone on this list, but I am not qualified
to say who is saved and who is not. I do not know your heart, or
Izzy's, and you do not
know mine.
We all claim Christ as our savior. All we can
do without evidence to the contrary is accept one another on the basis
of that claim. It is
soooo
tempting to say "He or she does not believe as I do, therefore he or
she cannot be saved ."
"If they were saved, they would believe as I do", is our pride
speaking. We have become modern day
Pharisees.
We have it all figured out.
Once we get the beam out of our eye though, we are commanded not to
throw pearls to swine or a holy sacrifice to the dogs. If we do not
make a judgment call, how do we tell the hogs and dogs from the Holy?
It is important to know, because if you do what you are commanded not
to do, they will turn and tear you to pieces. It is pretty obviou
s that you should not go into a Mosque in Iraq and start preaching
Jesus and calling Allah a false god. They would tear the pieces to
pieces. The same thing might happen if you preached against looting in
the middle of a race riot. But where is the line? At what point can
we say this is a hog and this is a dog, and this one needs to hear
about Christ? Do we draw the line at holy underwear? Does smoking
make you a hog or a dog? If you think you can sin tonight and do
penance tomorrow, are you a hog or not? What if you preach salvation
without repentance? Are you a holy because you preach, or are you a dog
because you don't mention repentance?
It's a good thing God looks at the heart. Yes sir, a real good thing.
Terry
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: Sorry about
that, Lance. I had hoped you would understand the underlying humor in
my answer.
To give you a serious answer, let me offer the example of what I
perceive to be true of Mother Theresa. Neither you or I believe that
the RCC folks espouse true
theology, yet apparently MT
was a true Christian due to her love of those who were disadvantaged.
Is there any truer Christian than one who gives her (or his) life to
others? I don't think so.
There are many Christian folk who believe in doctrines that I think
are in error. From my perspectiv
e that does not make them any less Christian than one how professes
true doctrine, but yet whose works demonstrate no motivation for being
a Christian. There are a lot of goodly (and Godly) sincere Christians
in the world who believe opposing doctrines. It is not for me to judge
them as inadequate in the Lord's eyes. I'll leave the judging to the
Judge, and as for myself.....I'll try to worry more about how to treat
others with respect even though I may disagree with their beliefs.
Lance Muir wrote:
I'm not asking you to speak for
God, Dave. I'm asking for you to speak within the context of your own
tradition.
You may recall my various
attempts to address the question 'Who is Jesus?'. Now, whatever the
variance within the Christian tradition(s) (I do not consider Mormonism Christian),
there isn't simply a 'variance' between you and I.
FWIW,
I DO BELIEVE that such as Mormons,
Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians MAY be
born from above even through a maze of heretical
beliefs (IMO).
DAVEH:
How would I know, Lance??? Perhaps Brother Dean can answer that
question from his personal experience! :-D
Lance Muir wrote:
Is it possible for one to
have a true heart connection (be born from above) with God through
Christ by the Spirit while espousing beliefs via one's dogma that are
intrinsically unreal (false)?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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