John, do you truly believe that when DaveH uses the name "jesus christ" that
he is referring to the same Jesus Christ to which you are referring? If not,
then he can appear to make the SAME confession of faith as you, but be
testifying of another jesus christ...not the one we know. Remember, the book
of mormon is "The Testament of Another Jesus Christ". It even says so on the
cover...sort of.
Matt 7:22,23
Perry
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The HEART of the matter
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:15:29 -0400
I have highlighted something you said, Terry, that is of great importance
to me. DaveH recently spoke of Christ being his redeemer and Savior. I
make the same claim. IN THAT DECLARATION, he and I are brothers. We do
not express that claim in the same ways -- but the claim is the same.
And JESUS is the Savior, not the church, or the preacher, or the prophet of
God. It is before his own Master that he stands or falls, and he will be
made to stand !!!! (Ro 14:4). Is he or other claimants saved? I
don't know. But I do know that Romans 14:4 should have something to say
in that discussion. I do know, that the words "God works all things for
good to them who love the Lord and ....." probably includes things that
have to do with my salvation. He takes the wrong I do, does not bring it
into account, and [thus] works a good that benefits me eternally.
Thanks for the words
Jd
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:34:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The HEART of the matter
Up to a point, I am in agreement with you, Dave. When John wrote of Jesus,
he recorded something very interesting that we find in chapter five, about
the middle of verse twenty-eight.."the hour is coming in which all who are
in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done
good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the
resurrection of condemnation."
Jesus was stating that He had the authority not only to raise the dead,
but also to judge them, sending some to Hell and inviting others to live
eternally with Him. From other things that He said in other scriptures, we
know that these are not the only things taken into consideration. You can
do all the good works you can do, for as long as you can do them, and still
go to Hell if your faith is not in Christ as your Savior. Evidently one
can also claim to be a follower of Christ but the evil pattern of one's
life makes a lie of one's claim and that person is also condemned to Hell.
Those who deny self, follow Christ, shun evil and do good get the
reward.
Mother Teresa, it was reported at one time, was not sure of her salvation.
How true that is I do not know. If she did her works out of love for her
Savior and her fellow man, she most certainly will be closer to the throne
than me, but if she did these works hoping they would save her, she is
begging for a drop of water at this moment and will be forever. I strongly
feel that she did her works out of love, but like you, I am in no position
to judge. We are clearly taught that we are not to judge another's works.
Jesus will handle that without our help, and that is a good thing.
I have an opinion about everyone on this list, but I am not qualified to
say who is saved and who is not. I do not know your heart, or Izzy's, and
you do not know mine. We all claim Christ as our savior. All we can do
without evidence to the contrary is accept one another on the basis of that
claim. It is soooo tempting to say "He or she does not believe as I do,
therefore he or she cannot be saved ."
"If they were saved, they would believe as I do", is our pride speaking.
We have become modern day Pharisees. We have it all figured out.
Once we get the beam out of our eye though, we are commanded not to throw
pearls to swine or a holy sacrifice to the dogs. If we do not make a
judgment call, how do we tell the hogs and dogs from the Holy? It is
important to know, because if you do what you are commanded not to do, they
will turn and tear you to pieces. It is pretty obvious that you should not
go into a Mosque in Iraq and start preaching Jesus and calling Allah a
false god. They would tear the pieces to pieces. The same thing might
happen if you preached against looting in the middle of a race riot. But
where is the line? At what point can we say this is a hog and this is a
dog, and this one needs to hear about Christ? Do we draw the line at holy
underwear? Does smoking make you a hog or a dog? If you think you can sin
tonight and do penance tomorrow, are you a hog or not? What if you preach
salvation without repentance? Are you a holy because you preach, or are you
a dog because you don't mention repentance?
It's a good thing God looks at the heart. Yes sir, a real good thing.
Terry
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: Sorry about that, Lance. I had hoped you would understand the
underlying humor in my answer.
To give you a serious answer, let me offer the example of what I
perceive to be true of Mother Theresa. Neither you or I believe that the
RCC folks espouse true theology, yet apparently MT was a true Christian due
to her love of those who were disadvantaged. Is there any truer Christian
than one who gives her (or his) life to others? I don't think so.
There are many Christian folk who believe in doctrines that I think
are in error. From my perspective that does not make them any less
Christian than one how professes true doctrine, but yet whose works
demonstrate no motivation for being a Christian. There are a lot of goodly
(and Godly) sincere Christians in the world who believe opposing doctrines.
It is not for me to judge them as inadequate in the Lord's eyes. I'll
leave the judging to the Judge, and as for myself.....I'll try to worry
more about how to treat others with respect even though I may disagree with
their beliefs.
Lance Muir wrote:
I'm not asking you to speak for God, Dave. I'm asking for you to speak
within the context of your own tradition.
You may recall my various attempts to address the question 'Who is Jesus?'.
Now, whatever the variance within the Christian tradition(s) (I do not
consider Mormonism Christian), there isn't simply a 'variance' between you
and I.
FWIW, I DO BELIEVE that such as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and
Christadelphians MAY be born from above even through a maze of heretical
beliefs (IMO).
DAVEH: How would I know, Lance??? Perhaps Brother Dean can answer that
question from his personal experience! :-D
Lance Muir wrote:
Is it possible for one to have a true heart connection (be born from above)
with God through Christ by the Spirit while espousing beliefs via one's
dogma that are intrinsically unreal (false)?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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