I have highlighted something you said, Terry, that is of great
importance to me. DaveH recently spoke of Christ being his
redeemer and Savior. I make the same claim. IN THAT
DECLARATION, he and I are brothers. We do not express that
claim in the same ways -- but the claim is the same. And
JESUS is the Savior, not the church, or the preacher, or the
prophet of God. It is before his own Master that he stands or
falls, and he will be made to stand !!!! (Ro 14:4). Is he or
other claimants saved?&nbs p; I don't know. But I do know that
Rom ans 14:4 should have something to say in that discussion. I
do know, that the words "God works all things for good to them
who love the Lord and ....." probably includes things that
have to do with my salvation. He takes the wrong I do, does not
bring it into account, and [thus] works a good that benefits me
eternally. Thanks for the words
Jd
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:34:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:The HEART of the matter
Up to a point, I am in agreement with you, Dave. When John wrote
of Jesus, he recorded something very interesting that we find in
chapter five, about the middle of verse twenty-eight.."the hour
is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
and come forth -- those who _have done good_ to the resurrection
of life, and those_ who have done_ _evil _to the resurrection of
condemnation."
Jesus was stating that He had the authority not only to raise
the dead, but also to judge them, sending some to Hell and
inviting others to live eternally with Him. From other things
that He said in other scriptures, we know that these are not the
only things taken into consideration. You can do all the good
works you can do, for as long as you can do them, and still go to
Hell if your faith is not in Christ as your Savior. Evidently
one can also claim to be a follower o f Christ but the evil
pattern of one's life makes a lie o f one's claim and that
person is also condemned to Hell. Those who deny self, follow
Christ, shun evil and do good get the reward.
Mother Teresa, it was reported at one time, was not sure of her
salvation. How true that is I do not know. If she did her works
out of love for her Savior and her fellow man, she most certainly
will be closer to the throne than me, but if she did these works
hoping they would save her, she is begging for a drop of water
at this moment and will be forever. I strongly feel that she did
her works out of love, but like you, I am in no position to
judge. We are clearly taught that we are not to judge another's
works. Jesus will handle that without our help, and that is a
good thing.
I have an opinion about everyone on this list, but I am not
qualified to say who is saved and who is not. I do not know your
heart, or Izzy's , and you do not know mine. *_We all claim
Christ as our savior. All we can do without evidence to the
contrary is accept one another on the basis of that claim._* It
is soooo tempting to say "He or she does not believe as I do,
therefore he or she cannot be saved ." "If they were saved, they
would believe as I do", is our pride
speaking. We have become modern day Pharisees. We have it all
figured out.
Once we get the beam out of our eye though, we are commanded not
to throw pearls to swine or a holy sacrifice to the dogs. If we
do not make a judgment call, how do we tell the hogs and dogs
from the Holy? It is important to know, because if you do what
you are commanded not to do, they w ill turn and tear you to
pieces. It is pretty obvio u s that you should not go into a
Mosque in Iraq and start preaching Jesus and calling Allah a
false god. They would tear the pieces to pieces. The same thing
might happen if you preached against looting in the middle of a
race riot. But where is the line? At what point can we say this
is a hog and this is a dog, and this one needs to hear about
Christ? Do we draw the line at holy underwear? Does smoking
make you a hog or a dog? If you think you can sin tonight and do
penance tomorrow, are you a hog or not? What if you preach
salvation without repentance? Are you a holy because you preach,
or are you a dog because you don't mention repentance?
It's a good thing God looks at the heart. Yes sir, a real good
thing.
Terry
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: Sorry about that, Lance. I had hoped you would
understand the underlying humor in my answer.
To give you a serious answer, let me offer the example of
what I perceive to be true of Mother Theresa. Neither you or I
believe that the RCC folks espouse true theology, yet apparently
MT was a true Christian due to her love of those who were
disadvantaged. Is there any truer Christian than one who gives
her (or his) life to others? I don't think so.
There are many Christian folk who believe in doct rines that
I think are in error. From my perspectiv e that does not make
them any less Christian than one how professes true doctrine,
but yet whose works demonstrate no motivation for being a
Christian. There are a lot of goodly (and Godly) sincere
Christians in the world who believe opposing doctrines. It is
not for me to judge them as inadequate in the Lord's eyes. I'll
leave the judging to the Judge, and as for myself.....I'll try
to worry more about how to treat others with respect even though
I may disagree with their beliefs.
Lance Muir wrote:
I'm not asking you to speak for God, Dave. I'm asking for you
to speak within the context of your own tradition.
You may recall my various attempts to address the question
'Who
is Jesus?'. Now, whatever the variance within the Christian
tradition(s) (I do not consider Mormonism Christian), there
isn't simply a 'variance' between you and I.
FWIW, I DO BELIEVE that such as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses
and Christadelphians MAY be born from above even through a maze
of heretical beliefs (IMO).
DAVEH: How would I know, Lance??? Perhaps Brother Dean
can answer that question from his personal experience!
:-D
Lance Muir wrote:
Is it possible for one to have a true heart connection (be
born from above) with God through Christ by the Spirit
while espousing beliefs via one's dogma that are
intrinsically unreal (false)?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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