Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!

[Dave Hansen]

Dave, ignoring all of your caustic insults DAVEH:   I find it rather amusing that you would say that, Perry.......considering you implied that I am Satan's messenger boy!....... My argument is not with you...it is with Satan...and Dave is our messenger boy....... ........and........ Furthermore, Satan (through Dave) has repeatedly issued..... ..........Did you think you could toss out caustic insults, without reaping the same? you have drifted off topic to the point of accusing me of dening things I have admitted, DAVEH:  I don't recall you ever admitting that Moses saw God.  If I am wrong, Perry.....just admit it now. If you can stay on topic and stop trying to accuse me of that, then we can continue.......And......perhaps we can continue if you stop the caustic remarks DAVEH:  And IF I were to say that if you don't stop accusing me of being Satan's messenger boy, then we can not continue!  Seems to me you are a bit overly sensitive, Perry.  You call me Satan's messenger boy and then get your nose bent out of shape when I use caustic insults?!?!?!  Do you remember when another TTer said to me........ you big cry baby .......Seems like those words are more befitting of you, Perry. The discussion NEVER was about whether or not Moses saw God DAVEH:   Huh?!?!?!   Where did you get that notion???  That is exactly what the discussion was about, Perry!  I initially made the comment........ Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God. ...........And, here are two of your related comments....... Dave,   You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on this, too. .........and....... Dave, Moses cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP! ...........Now, please realize that I stipulated that Moses was not allowed to see God's face at that time, and quoted (and noted) passages that said such.  But, the discussion precipitated from my initial comment......Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God and you implied that was contradictory to what the Bible teaches.  In the process of explaining in detail that the Bible sided with me on this matter, you then tried to change the nature of the discussion to say that man could not see God's face and live.  As you can see from the above comments you made prior to that time, seeing God's face was not an issue initially, nor at any time subsequent, even though you tried to make it an issue to avoid admission of being in error.  The whole point of this discussion was whether man could or could not see God and live.   The Bible is very clear on this.  Moses did see God's back parts.   Do you disagree, Perry? Are you back up to speed? if so, continue, but if you insist on carrying it off into the woods again, I won;t continue. DAVEH:   That's quite a threat from a guy who tried to change the whole nature of our discussion.     Now.....assuming you will either answer my above question (Moses did see God's back parts.   Do you disagree, Perry?) positively, or negatively....let me move ahead.  I assume you believe Jesus is fully God?  If so, how do you explain the apparent contradiction that people saw him and did not die from seeing him? Either the mormon god had a beginning or he didn't...Moses 1:3 says he did not...you say he did. Go for it. DAVEH:   There is no point in getting another discussion started when we have not yet finished this one, Perry.  The Bible mentions many people seeing God, and living despite seeing him.  To me, that is a big contradiction of Protestant theology.   And no....I didn't say that to irritate you.  It is just one aspect of Protestantism that fascinates me, and I assume you would have a similar view as most Protestants about this....so, that's why I am asking you the question.  How do you rationalize that apparent contradiction? Charles Perry Locke wrote: Dave, ignoring all of your caustic insults in the diatribe below, let me say that I did not give up on the discussion because I felt defeated or had no point to make. I ended that discussion because I realized that, 1, we would not agree, which we really never have, and that is no surprise, and 2, because, as you often do, you have drifted off topic to the point of accusing me of dening things I have admitted, and even have written about and agreed with. If you can stay on topic and stop trying to accuse me of that, then we can continue. But when you begin to drift I can see that there is no use in continuing. Let me try to bring you back on topic, and perhaps we can continue if you stop the caustic remarks and stay on topic...the topic was whether or not Moses could see God's "FACE" and survive. You have taken it entirely off track, changing the topic is on whether or not Moses saw god at all. Way off topic. Once you do that, and begin to state that I said that Moses did not see god, you are dealing in a fantasy world, and I lose interest in trying to bring you back around...it begins to feel quit futile after a few exchanges. The discussion NEVER was about whether or not Moses saw God...the point is, and I made it clear, that Moses did see whatever god presented to him to see...whether it was a burning bush, his glory, a pillar of file, a column of smoke...Moses saw them all. However, he did not see god's "face", whatever god presented that he referred to as his "face". His "face", Moses did not see, or else he would have died, for no man could see that and live. Are you back up to speed? if so, continue, but if you insist on carrying it off into the woods again, I won;t continue. And for the second topic, it certainly is not a theological matter...it is a logical matter. Either the mormon god had a beginning or he didn't...Moses 1:3 says he did not...you say he did. Go for it. Perry From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP! Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:35:28 -0800 *on to my second question**...how the mormon god, who is "without beginning of days" is also a created being, thus, with a finite beginning. * DAVEH:   I hardly looked at, or even thought about it Perry.  If you so stubbornly deny the obvious message (about Moses seeing God) in the Bible, to discuss something else that requires a lot more understanding of LDS theology is futile.  You would never be able to understand it from my perspective due to your preconceived notions.  The logic for understanding that it does not contradict the Bible requires a much broader understanding of the Bible message than you would be capable of comprehending.....which has become obvious from your perception of the Moses saw God passages we've just discussed.  And.....you've stated your goal to denigrate my beliefs.......So why bother.    Over the years I've been on TT, I've come to realize that most TTers (I won't even say Protestants) are very entrenched in their beliefs to the point that they cannot think out of the box.  I suppose you could say the same about me, but I perceive it from a much broader perspective.  You have confined your understanding to a very limited view of how the Bible is perceived, which is heavily rooted in tradition.  Because theological theories have been founded centuries ago, and been previously thoroughly discussed by historical scholars, it doesn't seem to leave you much room to expand your thinking.  The assumption that what you have been taught is superior to that which the Lord may have subsequently revealed clouds your thinking.  Instead of looking at it with an open mind, you simply have declared LDS theology to be evil, and apparently assume that anything I believe is absolutely contrary to the Bible.  At least that's the way I see it, Perry.    Basically.....I would be happy to discuss your above question with somebody who would actually be willing to have a meaningful discussion about it without getting his nose bent out of shape and curtly declares....... *I am done with this topic. I have stated my position. /*Fini.*/ *We are not destined to agree, and that is okay with me.* Get you last shot in, then... * .........Of course you are done with it, Perry......your assumption was shown to be in error.  But I was not done at all.....I had only discussed one aspect....Moses seeing God.   It is obvious that your theory contradicts the Bible, and we had not yet even discussed the other evidences the Bible gives to show the weakness of your position.  How can the discussion possibly be *Fini *when we have covered just a narrow window of the topic....Moses?  Yes, you have stated your opinion, but you failed to allow the discussion to continue to the point of considering the other evidences the Bible gives that contradict your theory.  In fairness to you, I had not yet offered that evidence due to nature of our initial few exchanges being limited to Moses seeing God.  But since you have prematurely ended the discussion, it brought termination to what I consider to be a fascinating contradiction in Protestant theology.....that most Protestants believe God could not be seen (without severe consequence), but yet Jesus....fully being God....was seen by many.  So....it is quite apparent that you really don't want to have a meaningful discussion about these things Perry.  Hence my reluctance to continue on to another topic without the ability to appropriately conclude the first one.  But....if another TTer (other than an anti-Mormon) would be willing to discuss this aspect, I'd sure appreciate it. Charles Perry Locke wrote: My second question? If you have no rationalization, just say so instead of dodging it. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.