Dave, are you nwext going to tell us that monkeys and hoses are your spirit
brothers, too? For that matter, what biblical evidence supports ANY of your
LDS theories?
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 06:57:53 -0800
*monkeys and horses do not have a soul.*
DAVEH: ??? Aren't you speculating when you make that claim, Terry? What
Biblical evidence supports that theory?
Terry Clifton wrote:
I won't speculate, Dave, but I should point out that *monkeys and horses
do not have a soul.*
==================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
*He knew they would sin. **He did not plan for them to fall. He planned
a remedy for the fall. Big difference.*
DAVEH: I don't quite see the difference, Terry. However, I will admit
to being biased by my belief that *He did plan for them to fall*.
/*As to their descendants missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is
speculate, and speculation often leads to error.*/
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree on this one, Terry. IMHO, it is safe to
speculate that some (if not most) of A&E's descendants would have
transgressed. Look at A&E....it didn't take them too long to transgress.
Do you think Cain, Hitler or any of the other villains of history would
have remained angels? I submit to you that there would proportionally be
very few who would not have transgressed. Consider another example.
Adults have preached to kids ad nauseam to avoid smoking, alcohol, sex
and drugs. Just denying them such, entices many it seems. So....would
you reasonably expect any but a few of A&E's descendants to withstand the
temptations that Eve failed to avoid?
Here's something to ponder: What effect would monkeys, horses or
whatever animals inhabiting the Garden of Eden eating the forbidden fruit
have had IFF A&E hadn't?
Terry Clifton wrote:
This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have
been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to
accept.
God is omnicient, *He knew they would sin.* *He did not plan for them
to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.*
/*As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is
speculate, and speculation often leads to error.*/
=================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
*He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?*
*if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of*
*humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the
human lot since then.*
DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one
facet of the A&E situation of which I am most keen. One of my
earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me
in which he said A&E screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden
fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live
forever without experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than
religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as being
intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again.
I must be missing something about your (forgive me....but let me
say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If A&E had not transgressed,
do you think none of their descendants would have transgressed? In my
experience, the best way to get a kid to do something, is to forbid him
from doing it! Don't you think that at some point---probably much
sooner than later---one of A&E's children would have fallen? Or do you
believe that of the billions who descended from A&E, none would ever
have transgressed? Just what are the chances of that
happening.....zilch?!?!?!
So....why do most Christians blame A&E for the misery in the
world, when it was inevitable. From my perspective....not only was it
expected, but it was planned. And.......evidently you believe that as
well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from
before the world was created.....that it was planned? (Please let me
know if you do not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe
that God wanted it to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective
perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I said....perhaps I'm
missing something about the way you understand it.....
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto have to transgress and *if they had not they would
have saved themselves and the rest of*
*humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the
human lot since then.* Why would the Lord
want that for them/us?
Terry Clifton wrote:
God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver,
no matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many
times I am given that option. God will give you the option, but it is
not His desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of
being God, wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to
make choices that bring pain and death.
Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers, selfishness,
starvation, disease.Do you think that maybe *He wanted Adam and Eve to
ruin it for everyone?*
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: One more fact from your perspective, Terry.........I assume
you believe that God did not want A&E to sin though, even though he
knew they would. Is that correct?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin.
Fact two: God hates sin. Fact three: Getting people to sin is the
top priority of Satan.
It's over. We know who to blame. Nothing to discuss.
Dave Hansen wrote:
*No. Actually, I have never heard this question discussed*
*
*DAVEH: That rather surprises me. I remember asking Perry a
similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off. That rather
surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.
As I understand, most Christians (including Protestants, RCC
and independents) believe that God wanted A&E not to transgress.
IFF that was actually his intention, then it seems an interesting
thought avenue to pursue. Yet, the few who've responded seem to
indicate that they have no interest in pondering what the Lord
intended to be. To me, that seems very strange. Does it strike
you as rather curious, John?
*
were A & E predestined to sin?*
DAVEH: Yes, I did ask that question. I do not know what you
folks believe about predestination and foreordination. Since you
apparently do not believe we existed in a pre-mortal state, it
would seem to me that you would not believe in either. But....I
don't want to assume such without at least asking you first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
*No. Actually, I have never heard this question discussed*.
You asked me to comment on a question -- perhaps a week ago,
now. Aaaahhhhhh, was it "*were A & E predestined to sin?* jd
DAVEH: May I suggest another topic of interest to me? I am
curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what would have
happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed. Does that
discussion ever come up with you folks?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Look -- what are we going to discuss here on TT? We have
pretty much said all that can be said about any number of
subjects. jd
----------
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ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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